Hebrews 6:4-6

Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.

Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

But then.... it perishes.

"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY" clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob said of Luke 8 --
On the contrary - 3 are saved -- 2 of the 3 are later lost. This is shown in the context of TD since 3 of the DEAD in fact COME to life -- SPRING TO LIFE -- but then 2 later die out.

Ok - Luke 8 it is.
========================================

Luke 8

In the Parable of the Sower we have one case of “never was saved” and 3 cases of “Saved” where “Two of them” show “Saved and then lost”. It is a case of the “Dead” barren ground - coming to life because of the Word of God – and then dying again.

Once they come to life – “failing to endure” or failing to “perservere” in that state can not be worked into a “failure to remain in a less lost state means that you are now really really lost”. And of course – the dead can not “of themselves” – “come to life”.

Christ shows that these are they who never were saved. A case of the dead that never came to life.

Clearly it is a reference to “salvation” and the Gospel. The highest theme in the Bible.

Those along the roadside never even ENTER the saved condition because they never believe. Life from the dead ground never even happens in that case.

=========================================

This dead and barren ground – springs to life due to the word of God but then withered “away” – dies. They “fall away” says Christ. (As we find in Gal 5 – “Fallen from Grace”).

Even though they “received the Word” – and John tells us that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”. They received Christ, the dead came to life, but then “withered away”. You can not “wither away” from the dead. You must be alive to die.

The fault is not that they were alive – but that they had no moisture and withered away AFTER coming to life. It is failure to REMAIN in that new state that is always the problem. Simply springing to life – receiving the word with Joy – Believing etc – none of that is condemned. It is failure to REMAIN that is condemned in every case.

But failure to “remain totally depraved or lost” is never problem in scripture.

The seed that falls among the thorns – is “choke Out”. Though – again – the dead barren ground “comes to life”.

Christ does not leave them at the shallow level of “they professed” – but rather they “received the word with Joy” and they “Believed” it is never the initial reception that is condemned but rather that at a later time “of temptation” they fall away.

They fall away from “something good” and that is condemned. To fall away from “false profession” or “unreal belief” is never bad.

=========================================

These “hear the Word”, come to life and “Grow up” but then the Life that they have is “choked out” by worldly concerns. They bear no fruit. In John 15 Christ points out that “every branch in Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire”.

 

Bob said --
EVEN worse - you have the problem of Heb 6 and Luke 8 that they failed to REMAIN in that saved state as "the problem". However failing to be a totally depraved person (since you claim they were never saved) is NO PROBLEM AT ALL. Paul is NOT arguing for a "lesser hell".

Indeed if it is the former then Paul is warning about the loss of "the gift of heaven" eternal life, warning about the ways it can be lost.

If it is the latter - then Paul is arguing for the joy of a "lesser hell" and the danger of losing that lesser hell, and being stuck with a greater hell by failing to persevere in the life of the lost person bound for the lesser hell.

Paul never presents the first state from which they fall away as "a lost state that is about to improve significantly because from their you could choose to believe some day".

Oh the foibles of Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I have no idea.

 

Bob Ryan said
Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.

No, we do not agree. The author is writing to PROFESSING believers, but he is aware of the possibility that some are mere professors, not possessors. And he would be aware that the true believers would certainly encounter professors who would apostasise. The 'false brethren' that Paul often warned about, the ones who preached another gospel to the Galatian church, for example.

Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state

The 'life' is no more than a sham, for the heart is not right, Luke 8: 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Unless you believe one can be a true believer and have an evil heart.

"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY" clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

Like repentance here, this profession is incomplete, conditional. But it still was a state of engaging with God. Had it sprung for a good heart, it would have been genuine. So this falling is a bad thing, seeing it removes the soul completely from any possibility of true repentance.

n Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

It is not the lost state that is in view, but the profession.

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are you saying unbelievers cannot taste something of God's goodness? To be persuaded and for a time enamoured with His majesty? I know many who have. But of course you would say they were saved and then lost.

Let me ask you, do you believe one who - in your view - was saved but then apostasises, is forever lost? That they have committed an unpardonable sin? The soul in this passage certainly has.


Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

God has made them so fully aware of Himself, His truth. That is not a state in itself that is condemned. It is their final refusal of that that brings the condemnation. The interim is a trial period for them, so not in itself rejected of God. It is the end of it that is condemned. A similar case would be that of the one who becomes a true believer - before he does so, a period of wrestling with God occurs. He is still not saved, but he is in a seeking state.

On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

Does the 'renew to repentance' mean that they had truly repented before? Or is it referring to a repentance that would be a first? I.e. Is it repentance that is renewed or the person? I think the latter. But it might refer merely to repentance, profession generally.


Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Let me ask you again, then: once this gift is refused, is that one's destiny sealed?

BTW, I'll be gone til Friday, DV.

In Him

Ian

 

Bob, I've just realised I overlooked your previous post on Luke 8. I haven't time now to deal with it but will do so on my return, DV.

In Him

Ian

 

Hi UMP;

Have you ever thought that you could just leave the faith renouncing it. The sin unto death is the rejection of the Holy Spirit. If this were impossible then Satan would give up on you the minute you got saved. Satan is the father of Lies, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't know the truth. So since he knows the truth that you claim we can't fall why does he keep tempting us?. Just sort of seems a waste of time to me.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

From ILUVLIGHT:

Well, Satan knew who Jesus was. He certainly demonstrated an excellent knowledge of what Scripture says when he tempted Jesus. But you know how pride works. There just might be a chance that the Scripture can go wrong, so....

 

But the problem becomes that of really renouncing the Truth of God's Grace revealed in the Face of Jesus Christ. Granted, each of us have times and days when we may be doubtful of our salvation, yet, having sent his only begotten Son into the World to give life to whosoever believes, and keeping in line with Heb. 6. 4-6, which of us are able to undo the work of revelation of our condition as sinners, our need of a redeemer and of his personal redemption of us? This inspite of the temptations of the flesh, the lies of Satan thrown at us and doubts rising up within and without, we are often beaten down, but through Christ, never are we defeated.

To make possible the falling away of any child of God, does not speak to the weakness of man, to make impossible the falling away of any child of God does not speak to the glory of man, to accept the first as truth speaks of the failure of God to defeat sin and death, and to accept the other teaches one the weaknesses of man seeking strength in himself, even as a believer while teaching his/her strength in the Grace found in Christ Jesus alone.

On the wings of an Eagle have I brought you out of bondage says God to Israel, now, will we teach that Eagle must be kept aflight by the strength of man?

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Bob Ryan said
Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.

I don't think we are as far apart on that as you claim. A mix of people will be in every church. The point is that Paul says "But we are convinced of BETTER things concerning you"

Bob said --Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state

If that were true - then we would have 3 roadside examples where the seed never came to life at all - and failure to "remain" in its dead state "is never" even mentioned once.

Obviously that is not the case.

Err umm... no. That is the "good ground".


Bob --
"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY" clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

Then it is a "good thing" to "fall away FROM" as it is not "the real deal".

So "falling away from not-salvation" will mean "Salvation to them".

But again -- that is obviously not the problem being described.

So the lost -- bound for a 'better hell' have fallen away from that more desirable lost state - and have found instead - an even worse lost state.

That is the idea of "falling from a better hell".

But you deny that the state they have fallen from "is true repentance". In fact Christ describes it as "belief" and "receiving with Joy" the Gospel. So if that is in fact "still being lost" then who could want to stay in such a lost - self-deceived state?

Better to be hot or cold, than luke warm where you THINK you are saved but are in fact still lost -- albeit bound for a "lesser hell".

Bob said -
in Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

Ok then. The failed profession of a still-lost person that claims to "believe" and "recieve the gospel with joy" -- and yet they are in your thinking - still lost.

Indeed you accuse them of "falling from a lesser hell".

But Christ never does. Christ's point is that the only flaw is in their FAILING to remain. The life the springs up is fine but then the weeds around it choke it so that it does not produce fruit.

The life the springs up is fine - but as it grows it encounters rocks and can not fully mature.

The fault is never - that the seed sprang to life.

Only one ground - produced no life.


Bob said -- Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They can not "Fall away from repentance" because they are not "AT repentance"

They can not fall away from "The Heavenly gift of eternal life" because they don't have it.

none of that is the description of the total depraved in a lost state.

I know that too. That is why I accept that they fell away from that state of acceptance of belief of repentance of joy in Christ, of the gift of the Holy Spirit, of the Gift of eternal life.

It is possible for that to happen. Paul mentions it in Hebrews 6.

But this would only be if they commit the unpardonable sin. And like Esau find no room for "repentance though they seek for it with tears" Heb 12.


Bob said --
On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

Indeed. For the Gospel never seeks to call the lost to "a lesser state of being lost".

The appeal to a "lesser hell" is not found in all of scripture.

The "Gift" that Paul speaks of is seen in Eph 2

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Certainly that can be the case. Depending on how deeply they drank of the water of life - the more they had, the more they knew - the more likely they can not go back because like Lucifer -- having known the full light of day they still go back and choose evil.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Have you ever thought that you could just leave the faith renouncing it. The sin unto death is the rejection of the Holy Spirit. If this were impossible then Satan would give up on you the minute you got saved. Satan is the father of Lies, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't know the truth. So since he knows the truth that you claim we can't fall why does he keep tempting us?. Just sort of seems a waste of time to me.
May God Bless You;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]ILUVLIGHT,
You answered your own question when you wrote the words, "satan is the father of LIES"

 

Hi UMP;

Satan didn't write Hebrews 6:4-6 and the subject at hand is can you loose your Salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6 is God's word. If we infact cannot fall then why is this even mentioned in Hebrews? Are you trying to deny that it exist. Maybe we are being scared straight and this isn't really true.

There is one thing I'm sure of. God's word is truth and we should never ignore a warning from the Bible.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT writes:
"If we infact cannot fall then why is this even mentioned in Hebrews?"

I already answered that question on page two of this discussion.

 

Spurgeon on Hebrews 6: 4-6. Thank God for His AMAZING GRACE !!!

There is a cup of sin which would damn thy soul, O Christian. Oh! what grace
is that which holds thy arm, and will not let thee drink it? There thou art,
at this hour, like the bird-catcher of St. Kilda, thou art being drawn to
heaven by a single rope; if that hand which holds thee let thee go, if that
rope which grasps thee do but break, thou art dashed on the rocks of
damnation. Lift up thine heart to God, then, and bless him that his arm is
not wearied, and is never shortened that it cannot save. Lord Kenmure, when
he was dying, said to Rutherford. "Man! my name is written on Christ's hand,
and I see it! that is bold talk, man, but I see it!" Then, if that be the
case, his hand must be severed from his body before my name can be taken from
him; and if it be engraven on his heart, his heart must be rent out before
they can rend my name out.

Hold on, then, and trust believer! thou hast "an anchor of the soul, both
sure and steadfast, which entereth within the veil." The winds are bellowing,
the tempests howling; should the cable slip, or thine anchor break, thou art
lost. See those rocks, on which myriads are driving, and thou art wrecked
there if grace leave thee; see those depths, in which the skeletons of
sailors sleep, and thou art there, if that anchor fail thee. It would be
impossible to moor thee again, if once that anchor broke; for other anchor
there is none, other salvation there can be none, and if that one fail thee,
it is impossible that thou ever shouldst be saved. Therefore thank God that
thou hast an anchor that cannot fail, and then loudly sing-

 

Hi UMP;
If one be lost it is possible
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Judas the son of perdition was given to Christ but was lost. Not because he was cast out, but because he left on his own. Judas was one of the elect chosen by God himself and given to Christ. The Word says so above. Judas chose silver money over that of Christ. He later repented but was he saved?.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT writes:
"He later repented but was he saved?."

I don't know the names written in the book of life.

 

Bob Ryan said
In the case of the “good ground” – we see the “same growth” the same springing to life and growth But then it ALSO bears the Fruit. And as Matt 7 points out “by their fruit you shall know them”. And John 15 states that it is the purpose of God to bring out that fruit.
(Which is as Galations 5 points out – the fruit of the Spirit given in increasing measure to all who are saved).

All you have alleged previously about the other soils, that two of them represent true believers, is here cut down by your own argument.

Note, “by their fruit you shall know them”. Know what? That they are a better sort of true beleiver? No, that they ARE true believers. True believers bear fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is indeed given to ALL who are saved.

The crucial difference between the soils is not the initial response, but the nature of the soil itself. The 'honest and good heart' is the thing the other sort of professors had not. Therefore their real nature would soon expose itself in their apostasy.

In Him

Ian

 

I forget where I read this, but someone said that "if you are saved by grace but can lose your salvation if you don't perservere" that's like saying "here's a free Mercedes Benz, which you get to keep for as long as you pay $1,000 per month".

 

Bob Ryan said
If that were true - then we would have 3 roadside examples where the seed never came to life at all - and failure to "remain" in its dead state "is never" even mentioned once.

It is your reading into the text that 'sprang up' means regeneration and justification. Can that really be said of one 'having no root'? No, 'sprang up' refers to a profession of faith. It may prove to be true or false.

I had said: Luke 8: 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Unless you believe one can be a true believer and have an evil heart.

To which you replied: Err umm... no. That is the "good ground".

The verse I quoted is about the good ground - that's my point. You are claiming the other types are also true believers, yet they have not 'good and noble hearts'. Therefore you must believe one can be a true believer without a good heart.


So if that is in fact "still being lost" then who could want to stay in such a lost - self-deceived state?

The point would not be to stay there, but for the profession to be genuine - that they respond to the revelations they have received in a true way, not as they have done so to date. If the reader is not yet truly converted, let him press through the strait gate. To go back is certain death.

Indeed you accuse them of "falling from a lesser hell".

I HAVE NEVER USED THAT EXPRESSION. Nor do I even understand it. It is solely your invention.

The fault is never - that the seed sprang to life.

Yes indeed. As 'sprang up' means 'professed' - nothing wrong with professing.

They can not "Fall away from repentance" because they are not "AT repentance"

Have you never encountered 'get me out of this' repentance? Is it usually genuine? No. But is it wrong to describe it as repentance? No, for the term can carry both true and false connotations. Same here.

They can not fall away from "The Heavenly gift of eternal life" because they don't have it.

Here is something the text doesn't have: 'of eternal life'. That is your addition.

I know that too. That is why I accept that they fell away from that state of acceptance of belief of repentance of joy in Christ, of the gift of the Holy Spirit, of the Gift of eternal life.

Bob, go back and review the parable in each of the gospels. You will see that eternal life, the life the true believer has, is not what is portrayed in the first three soils. For example, yet he has no root in himself. Bad hearts, no root, no understanding.

But this would only be if they commit the unpardonable sin. And like Esau find no room for "repentance though they seek for it with tears" Heb 12.
Certainly that can be the case. Depending on how deeply they drank of the water of life - the more they had, the more they knew - the more likely they can not go back because like Lucifer -- having known the full light of day they still go back and choose evil.


No 'can be' about it - it is one or the other. Here is what the text says: ' For it is impossible'. IMPOSSIBLE. NOT maybe, or very difficult, but impossible.

Your interpretation of Heb.6 is that a true believer falls away. This cannot be qualified in anyway if you believe this. If the description is of true belief, then any true believer who falls away is eternally, unchangeably lost. My interpretation holds the Heb.6 description is of such a clear knowledge of the gospel that it IS beyond possibility of recovery if one turns away.

In Him

Ian

 

No - it's like saying here is a free Mercedes you can keep it as long as you keep driving it. But if you choose to drive another car - the Mercedes is no longer yours.

Obviously.

But the Calvinist seeks to equate the act of taking the keys and jumping in the car -- with paying 60,000$ and jumping in the car.

As if we would not "notice" the difference.

In Christ,

Bob