Hebrews 6:4-6

Bob Ryan said
If that were true - then we would have 3 roadside examples where the seed never came to life at all - and failure to "remain" in its dead state "is never" even mentioned once.

The ground lifeless and dead is the soul dead in sin.

The seed is the Gospel of the kingdom.

The ground SPRINGING to LIFE is "And when they HEARD it they BELIEVED and received the word with JOY".

The idea that "BELIEF" is bad is not in the text.

The idea that "receiving the word with JOY" is not in the text.

Notice the ground where the birds snatch the seed away? This is the ground where the lost soul NEVER believes - NEVER springs to life - NEVER grows up and so has NOTHING to fall from or to fail to CONTINUE.

This is so blatantly obvious that it places you in a very difficult position. I do not envy you the task of having to turn it around when it is so clear and obvious to start with.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said
Notice the ground where the birds snatch the seed away? This is the ground where the lost soul NEVER believes - NEVER springs to life - NEVER grows up and so has NOTHING to fall from or to fail to CONTINUE.

But is this 'believing' true belief? That is the issue. You failed to resond to my previous point, 'Note, “by their fruit you shall know them”. Know what? That they are a better sort of true beleiver? No, that they ARE true believers. True believers bear fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is indeed given to ALL who are saved.'

Also, you had no response to my 'You will see that eternal life, the life the true believer has, is not what is portrayed in the first three soils. For example, yet he has no root in himself. Bad hearts, no root, no understanding.'

Come on, Bob - What does our fruit, or lack of it, reveal? Can a true believer be described as having no root, no understanding, and a bad heart?

In Him

Ian

 

Bob Ryan said
Notice the ground where the birds snatch the seed away? This is the ground where the lost soul NEVER believes - NEVER springs to life - NEVER grows up and so has NOTHING to fall from or to fail to CONTINUE.

You can't mix metaphores and still make sense.

If you cross the trees in Matt 7 with the farmer's field in Luke 8 you don't get the same fruit.

In the case of Matt 7 - the person is the tree. A bad tree is a bad person inernally corrupt. NOTE this is not a DEAD tree or a lifeless tree - .. but in the case of the lost soul it IS spiritually dead.

In the case of luke - the GROUND is the person it it DOES show them to be DEAD. The life coming out from the dead is what counts and FAILING to remain in that living state is the "problem" just as Heb 6 shows that FAILING to REMAIN in that ideal state is the "problem".

Your position needs you to argue that the lost state - the dead state - the TD state is the "ideal state" from which both the Heb 6 group and the group in Luke 8 "falls".

You are stuck with arguing for "a lesser hell" as the thing from which they "fell away".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said
You can't mix metaphores and still make sense.

OK, let's stick with the Parable of the Soils. So, answer the question, Can a true believer be described as having no root, no understanding, and a bad heart?

In the case of luke - the GROUND is the person it it DOES show them to be DEAD. The life coming out from the dead is what counts and FAILING to remain in that living state is the "problem" just as Heb 6 shows that FAILING to REMAIN in that ideal state is the "problem".

Profession is what is in view - the professions are the same, but the underlying heart condition is not.

In Heb.6, the writer says that those who have received such revelation from God are beyond repentance if they fall away. Failing to maintain that profession is for them an irrecoverable fall. However, not all false professions are the Heb.6 sort; many make quick, emotional responses to hyper-evangelism and their IGNORANT profession soon fails. These folks CAN be 'renewed' to repentance, when the gospel is accurately explained to them and the Spirit causes them to knowingly embrace Christ.

Your position needs you to argue that the lost state - the dead state - the TD state is the "ideal state" from which both the Heb 6 group and the group in Luke 8 "falls". You are stuck with arguing for "a lesser hell" as the thing from which they "fell away".

Ah, I think I now see what you mean by 'lesser hell'. No, the state of profession - and in the case of Heb.6, of great enlightenment - are not in themselves bad states, nor are they sufficiently good states. They are a step on the way to salvation. If progessed from, then salvation comes. If regressed from, then the judgement of those dying lost will be greater, for to whom much is given, from them much is demanded.

We have all been along the road to salvation. Were those steps bad in themselves, or complete? When God first moved your conscience, was that a lesser hell? When He brought a first knowledge of the gospel, was that a lesser hell? When you were deeply moved by the Spirit but still had not surrendered to Christ, was that a lesser hell?

No, all were blessed steps on your way to conversion. But had you turned back and remained a rebel until you died, they would have been occasion of a GREATER hell.

In Him

Ian

 

Bob said In the case of luke - the GROUND is the person it it DOES show them to be DEAD. The life coming out from the dead is what counts and FAILING to remain in that living state is the "problem" just as Heb 6 shows that FAILING to REMAIN in that ideal state is the "problem".

Failure to maintain a fake profession is "never condemned in all of scripture". The Luke 8 text never says that "believing with joy" is a problem though you seem to think it must.

It is not "springing to life" that is condemned - it is what happens AFTER that. And it is the fact that what happens AFTER that results in death of that LIFE that spring into being - that is the clear "bad" thing.

BUT the dead failing to remain AS DEAD as they always were - is not mentioned in all of scripture -- much less Luke 8.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said
Failure to maintain a fake profession is "never condemned in all of scripture". The Luke 8 text never says that "believing with joy" is a problem though you seem to think it must.

But failing to maintain a profession shows an unchanged heart, and the wicked heart IS condemned. It is the nature of the belief that is the problem. If it had been genuine, it would have been permanent, but since it was only a fair-weather belief, it is rejected.

It is not "springing to life" that is condemned - it is what happens AFTER that. And it is the fact that what happens AFTER that results in death of that LIFE that spring into being - that is the clear "bad" thing.

It is the whole thing that is condemned - the bad heart produces no fruit and eventually even the profession goes. The failing soils are not praised at all, rather their inate deficiencies are pointed out. They NEVER were good soil; they always were barren or choked. They did not become good soil, then revert to being bad soil.


BUT the dead failing to remain AS DEAD as they always were - is not mentioned in all of scripture -- much less Luke 8.

That is the whole issue at debate: the Heb.6 case; the dog that returns to its vomit; the pig to its wallowing in the mire, 2 Peter 2:22. These images show us that the nature of the false believer never changed, even though their behaviour modified. They returned to behaving as they actually were inside.

In Him

Ian

 

Bob Ryan said
Failure to maintain a fake profession is "never condemned in all of scripture". The Luke 8 text never says that "believing with joy" is a problem though you seem to think it must.

Only if you agree that the "profession" is a "good thing". In your case you argue that it is " a bad thing" you claim it is merely a "game" that the unchanged fallen soul is playing. Then you argue that "failing to continue playing the game is the sign of an unchanged heart".

The "Truth" is that IF that game were the bad thing you claim it to be - then FAILING to continue in that bad thing - would be a "good thing".

Your argument appears to be stuck.

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob said -
It is not "springing to life" that is condemned - it is what happens AFTER that. And it is the fact that what happens AFTER that results in death of that LIFE that spring into being - that is the clear "bad" thing.

No. The seed sprouting and coming to life is never condemned.

The plant growing is never condemned.

The only thing condemned is failure to continue growing - to thrive and mature. Never is it argued that the dead lifeless ground was "better".

AND in the story the "bad state" is the death of the living plant BACK to the cold dead lifeless ground state from which it came.

There is no state LOWER than the starting point of lifeless ground.

Clearly LIFE springs up but fails over time to mature due to the various reasons. LIFE from the dead but then FAILURE to persevere IN that LIFE.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said
Clearly LIFE springs up but fails over time to mature due to the various reasons. LIFE from the dead but then FAILURE to persevere IN that LIFE.

If it was the eternal life the Spirit gives, how can Christ say of such a one that they had no root, no understanding, and a bad heart? That is the question I've asked you several times, but had no response.

Their belief was no better than that of the demons. A knowledge of God without a heart that loves Him.

In Him

Ian

 

Again - you need to get back to the quote itself. Christ says the DID recieve the word with Joy and that they did believe.

Neither the receiving or the joy or the believing is condemned. In the case of the weeds - the dead ground springs to life but the weeds prevent it from maturing.

If the initial LIFE was not life at all - then it would simply be "Dead ground where the birds ate the seed, vs DEAD ground where people walked on the seed, vs DEAD ground where the seed blew away" etc etc.

In your model you ONLY have room for 3 different kinds of dead ground to lose the seed planted. You have no place "allowed" for the "DeAD to come to LIFE and being GROWING up but then fail to RETAIN that good, saved, believing, joyful state".

So the contrast between what your view "allows" and what the text provides - is very sharp in this case.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said
Again - you need to get back to the quote itself. Christ says the DID recieve the word with Joy and that they did believe.

If this was genuine faith, then you must have an answer to my question, which I have put to you several times but you have refused to answer:
' If it was the eternal life the Spirit gives, how can Christ say of such a one that they had no root, no understanding, and a bad heart? That is the question I've asked you several times, but had no response.'

In Him

Ian

 

Dear Bob and all.

I'm sorry I must break off for a while. May our Heavenly Father guide you all by His Spirit into more and more truth. I hope to meet up with you in the not too distant future.

In Him

Ian