Hey, Jack

Once again why stereotype preachers, as in the issue you and I are discussing I feel I have a very good argument.</font>[/QUOTE]I have not stereotyped anyone. Some preachers do it, some don't. Some people who are not preachers do it, some don't.

Who suggested doing this? Preachers need to stand for truth. To suggest I am saying otherwise suggests that you have misunderstood my position.

That can certainly be a severe problem. By the same token, much of the trouble with fundamentalists or "conservatives" is that they draw lines of "sin" that are not sin.

Yes. But the way you do that is not by judging their motives (which you do not know), but by judging the truth or falsehood of their beliefs and practice. Confront the issues you encounter as you talk with them, but do not declare them to be an enemy of God when you do not know their heart.

I have never believed you are an uncaring monster. But if you judge someone's motives (their heart), you are sinning. Only God knows the heart and only God can judge that accurately.

And you would be sinning because you do not know their heart. Lots of people have head knowledge, but that sometimes interferes with their ability to accept the teaching of scripture without enormous biases. If someone has been indoctrinated into a certain theological position, they may struggle all their lives to free themselves from their presuppositions. You do not know if they are truly "calling God a liar" or if they are just honestly mistaken.

Can you give me an example where he said they were "calling God a liar"? Jesus judged their actions, their doctrine and he happened to know their thoughts from time to time. Do you know that thoughts and intentions of others?

 

If you and I were friends in the real world and I misunderstood some directions you gave me to get to your new home, would I be "disagreeing with you"? Nope. I would just be mistaken. It is impossible to disagree with someone unless you know that there is a difference of opinion. To say otherwise is to assume that the other person is being dishonest.

You are assuming that the person who is wrong refuses to see the truth. What about those who are just don't understand yet? Should Christians condemn them as enemies of God?

There are many things in scripture I don't know or completely understand. I am in the process of being made new... but I'm not yet complete. All of us "see through a glass darkly". Should we condemn each other for not understanding everything? Of course not.

One of the missions of the church is to help each other understand the truth of God. We do this by patiently teaching one another in the power of the Holy Spirit. Judging one another as alleged enemies of God undermines the work of the church.

 

Good play on words Pastor Bob
When my children were still at home, we played card games like "Uno" etc. that didn't have face cards. We also played "Bible Trivia" and "Bible Pictionary", we played many board games after out devotional time because we rarely watched TV. It was a good time for us to share the day's events.

I have no objection to playing with face cards today; we even gamble (but we don't use money, only cheerios)
Sue

 

But, if you and I were friends in the real world and I gave you directions, but you said you had a better way to get there, you would be disagreeing with me, even tho I told you that your way would not get me to my house </font>[/QUOTE]But that line of reasoning assumes that I accurately understood your directions in the first place.

But when you face a person who is wrong, say a JW or a Mormon, and they refuse the truth, but they continue to tell others about there belief, leading others astray, should you just respect them and say, well there is room for different belief? </font>[/QUOTE]You judge their teaching… not their motives.

Maybe… But you and I don’t really know for sure. We are not to judge motives. We are supposed to judge truth from error and judge actions and spiritual fruit.

Maybe we aren't talking about the same people. Born-again believers shuld help each other in this way. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree, we should.

I am too.

So why would you want to judge their motives and call them an enemy of God (“calling God a liar”)?

Not very often. I enjoy a good game of Hearts though.

[ January 20, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

According to your view of the truth not mattering only the motives then are you not judging me in the same way you accuse me of judging others? Atleast we do draw the line, and by the way this is a fundamental, conservative forum so why are you judging us here? </font>[/QUOTE]If you put this quote back in its context, you will see that I am responding to a charge that “liberals” tend not to draw lines on sin. I am merely pointing out that (as many self-described “fundamentalists” here have agreed) that fundamentalists have an unfortunate tendency to fall into legalism. As far as judgment goes, I am not judging motives or anyone’s heart. Furthermore, you are the one who has identified yourself as one who might use the “calling God a liar” rhetoric. I did not come after you, but you have stepped up (courageously and honestly I might add) to discuss this matter with me. I am not judging your motives and I don’t know your heart. I am merely judging one of your self-professed actions.

yes but Jesus said to judge righteous judgement </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. That’s what I have been trying to point out. You cannot righteously judge someone else’s motives or their heart. You can judge their doctrine, their actions and the fruit of their spiritual life.

And you would be sinning because you do not know their heart. Lots of people have head knowledge, but that sometimes interferes with their ability to accept the teaching of scripture without enormous biases. If someone has been indoctrinated into a certain theological position, they may struggle all their lives to free themselves from their presuppositions. You do not know if they are truly "calling God a liar" or if they are just honestly mistaken. </font>[/QUOTE]are you promoting a you're ok. I'm ok. live and let live doctrine? </font>[/QUOTE]No. Why it this so hard to understand?

They can and they should. But they should not attempt to judge motives or judge the heart. Only God knows that and He will judge righteously.

Yes. I agree. It doesn’t matter if they call themselves “Christian”, “liberal”, “fundamentalist”, “conservative”, “moderate”, “a Mainstream Baptist”, “a member of the ‘conservative resurgence’”, “Baptist”, “CBF” or “SBC”.

[ January 20, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

You are indeed judging my motives because as one who would say a person is calling God a liar I am doing so dependant upon their denial of scriptural truth. I feel that the truth of God's word are not enforced or validated due to the fact that someone may or may not understand them or because of the way they may or may not have been taught. </font>[/QUOTE]1.) I am not judging your motives. I do not know your motives nor am I trying to guess them. I am judging actions which you have professed to engage in.
2.) I have not claimed that the truth of God's word is enforced or validated by a person understanding the message. Truth is truth, even if no one recognizes it.

Yes. You seem to be laboring under the illusion that I have a low view of scripture. (I do not.)

Your assumption is that the teaching is clear and obvious to the other person. Sometimes things are not so obvious.

No it is not. I made my initial statement without ever thinking of you. You brought yourself into this conversation. Your charge is completely false.

May I please ask the same of you. Why don't we discuss the issue instead of engaging in finger pointing?

as Hebrews 4:12 says the word of God penetrates and knows the thoughts and intents of the heart and therfore I believe that dependant upon a persons acceptance or rejection of God's word we can gain insight into the intent of their heart.</font>[/QUOTE]But you are not the word of God... As you said, we can gain insight, but we cannot have certainty. Instead of attempting to judge someone's hearts, why don't we just judge their actions, doctrine and fruit?

The charge that you've made against me regarding judging your motives is completely false. I think I have said this before but you do not seem to believe me. What makes you think I am not being honest with you?

 

BB you ask why do I think you are not being honest, I am not questioning your honesty but when I look at statements from your last post I am concerned that you do not understand or that you are taking both sides of the issue. You agree with me that truth is truth no matter if it is recognized by a person or not but then you throw up a roadblock by saying " Your assumption is that the teaching is clear and obvious to the other person. Sometimes things are not so obvious." I thought we had both agreed that truth stands alone independant of ones understanding. It is my belief that the word of God judges a person and as a Pastor I feel that I can view a persons intent by their denial or acceptance of scripture,and when I make a statement about their beliefs I am doing so because of their stance toward those same scriptures. Apparently you do not. I would hope that both of us can agree to disagree and move on past this discussion as I feel nothing more can be accomplished.
Murph

 

The statements are not in conflict.

What is your biblical justification for this belief? Where does the New Testament teach that we can know the heart and motives of another person?

Yet, in practice, I have known a number of others (not you) who have falsely judged me based on what they believed my intent to be because of my understanding of scriptures or denominational politics. You may be a rare person in your spiritual insight, being somehow able to know the heart and motives of another, but I know from personal experience that there are a number of pastors who falsely judge this way.

If you care to leave the conversation, you may.

 

If you care to leave the conversation, you may.[/QB][/QUOTE]

BB I am sorry you felt my suggestion to depart the discussion was unwise. You and I obviously dissagree and by the lack of imput from others we must be the only ones interested at this point, adding to this the fact that together we have derailed this thread I insist that this discussion be moved to Pm's. I hope that this can be the last word from either of us on this subject on this thread. Please feel free to PM me or to start a new thread if you choose.

Murph

 

I play cards, so it must be all right.

 

Baptist Believer, I am trying to find some tangible part to your reasoning and to your opposing of C.S. Murphy, but for the world of me I can't. Is there a point to this madness, and getting off the subject at hand (which is: "Do you play cards")?

If I will not see some improvement ASAP in the area of communicating truth in love, then I shall suggest the closing of this thread. So let us see an honorable end to this discussion, shall we?!

*** Since no action has been seen on this thread for a decade now, I shall close it forthwith. ***

[ January 25, 2003, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]