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Featured Historical Blessedness and Present (and Future) Irrelevance of Jewishness

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Rom. 3:1-2:
    "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of
    circumcision?

    Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed
    the oracles of God."


    Rom. 10:12-13:
    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the
    same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


    We often tend to shy away from what appear to us as Bible contradictions. Though we assume that there is a reconciliation we tend to just move on to other less difficult passages. But it is in these surface contradictions that we very often have important truth brought to focus.

    Consider these two passages in Romans. In the first being a Jew is deemed an "advantage". In the second there seems to be no advantage. How are these two to be reconciled? The answer, as always in these cases, is to look more closely at the text. The chief advantage for the Jew in Romans 3 is that they had the "oracles of God". This is, of course, the Old Testament, the inspired writings that pointed Jews to, and prepared Jews for, the long-promised Messiah. This advantage ended when the purpose ended.

    In the second passage we see that there is no difference between Jew or non-Jew (here, "Greek", standing for all the rest of the Gentiles). The passage goes on to say that God will respond to those in both groups who call upon Him.

    Have you noticed a key difference in both of these passages? One looks to the past,

    "unto them were committed (past tense) the oracles of God."

    The other looks to the future,

    "For whosoever shall call (future tense) upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (future)."

    Of course, the future here is not, strictly speaking, our future; the calling [on the name of Jesus] - and the saving - of verse 13 were already happening in the time of the New Testament.

    Here is a strange development: Much of Futurism does not follow this Scriptural principle. Instead many of them view Jewishness as a future (and present) advantage. They see this advantage eventually crytallizing into, among other things, reenactments of Temple sacrifices and rituals, reimposing of Levitical separations. By contrast, this same group, downplays or neglects the Jews' historical advantage, the Oracles of God.

    If they would have truly appreciated the first they would not have falsely construed the second. Not understanding properly the Old Testament, seeing its relation to the New, they do not recognize the divine deprecation of an instrument that, however blessed in it's time, no longer has specific purpose. Both Gentiles and Jews, the Israel of God, have gone on to the better, prepared place their mutual Messiah had promised.

    This is not anti-Semitism. It is realized Semitism!
     
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  2. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    This makes me think of the old adage that should help us understand Scripture: the New Testament is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed. The Redemptive Story starts with Adam and goes through Abraham long before the Jewish Race even existed. The Jews are still viewed as God's "chosen people", even though Christians have become "Spiritual Israel". Those who hold to this view are disparaged as holding to Replacement Theology, and this is supposed to shut down our argument. We may be accused of being anti-Semitic. Yet, in the Futurist view, millions of Jews are to return to Israel only to be killed. The only Israel that matters is spiritual. Abraham was not a Jew, but was counted righteous by his faith.
     
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  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There is no contradiction between these verses but there is a contradiction in your understanding of these verses. First, with regard to the second passage there has never been any other way of salvation but justification by faith in the Messiah for remission of sins for Gentiles living two thousand years prior to the existence of Judaism (Genesis 3-11) nor between Genesis 12 and Acts 2 nor after Acts 2 and never will be. Second, with regard to the first passage this has nothing to do with salvation but with God's visible kingdom administration under the Jews which is no under gentile administration.


    The future salvation of "elect" Israel as a nation is as secure and sure as your own election to salvation and is based on the very same kind of salvation "in Christ."
     
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  4. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    There is no way that both your statement and the Romans verses can be true.

    Rom. 10:12-13:
    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the
    same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


    God no longer is dealing with the nation Israel as He did in the past. We also know that salvation in Christ is an individual thing. This notion of a "future salvation of "elect" Israel as a nation" ... "based on the very same kind of salvation "in Christ" assumes an unscriptural way to God. If Israel as a nation would be saved then obviously they are being saved en masse, in a much different way than the biblical way.

    Peter said in Acts 15:11:

    "But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they."
     
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  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Only if you believe there is salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at any time? Only Gentiles existed prior to Abraham (He was a gentile) and those before Abraham were saved identically to Abraham and exactly the same way the elect remnant of Israel between Abraham and Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2).

    Salvation is ALWAYS an individual personal experience and so will it be for the future nation of Israel but the conversion will be greater than any mass conversion in a Billy Graham crusade.


    God never dealt with Israel with regard to salvation any differently than he did Enoch, Noah or Abraham or you or me as there are no multiple ways of salvation and never has been any kind of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ. God no longer uses Israel as the administrator of his ordinances and worship in his kingdom as that type of administration looked forward to the coming of Christ and its ordinances and administrations were replaced by the church as the administrator of God's ordinances within his kingdom.

    Salvation will come to Israel according to election as individuals in mass at His appearing as they will look upon him and be saved, saved just like me and you.
     
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  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Being saved en masse or being saved individually is an either/or scenario. They cannot both be true. There are two ways your imagined future nationwide salvation of unbelieving Jews cannot be biblical, Biblicist:

    1. If a whole nation gets saved that means something or Someone is overriding the process, making salvation easier - at any rate different - for them than it has been for Christians these last 20 centuries.

    2. If they are prompted to repentance by seeing (not believing) then this is also a different way of salvation. We are saved by faith, not by sight. We are told by Christ Himself that no visual aid will bring a person - let alone a nation - to salvation.

    "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
    - Luke 16:27-31

    What you are proposing is very similar to this.
     
    #6 asterisktom, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  7. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    Question from the audience.

    Where do you get your text for this nationwide conversion? I'm not saying you don't have one, I simply would like to read it myself. I'm assuming your using a part of revelation (from perhaps a futurist position)



    Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

     
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  8. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    I do think it's worth noting that the phrase "replacement theology" is really loaded. As replace really isn't the right word. We're taking about a grafted in people (the gentiles), everyone's invited, no ones replaced.

    As my preterist meter rises day by day it irks me that I used to think so poorly of those who held to different eschatology.

    Edit: worth it to me anyway, no one else may care haha


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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Tell that to the Billy Graham Association who have mass groups of people at every crusade come down and confess Christ. Both can be true and it is obvious to those who have ever attended such a crusade. However, in this case it will not be Billy Graham, but Jesus Christ coming in the clouds which they look upon and believe in (Rev. 1:7; Rom. 10:25-28).
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I think Romans 9-11 settles this conclusively, especially Romans 11 deals with this issue directly. I have just a few questions for those who believe the church and Israel are one and the same today - or a spiritual Israel and that national Israel has been completely rejected by God AS A NATION.

    1. Which "Israel" is it that Paul says "has not obtained what he seeketh for" "but is blinded unto this day" in Romans 11:7-8? (1) the Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) National ethnic Israel?

    2. Which 'Israel" is it that David says "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?"

    (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) National ethnic Israel?

    3. Which Israel has stumbled and fallen so that the gospel may come to the Gentiles in Romans 11:11-12? (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?

    4. Which Israel does Paul says are "of my flesh" that only "some" of them might be saved by Paul's ministry - Rom.11:13? (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?

    5. Which Israel has been cast away and cut off by God "because of unbelief" who are called "the natural banches" which God "did not spare: in Romans 11:14-20?
    (1) The Remnant; (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?


    If you are honest with these texts and context the only possible answer for all five questions is #3 Ethnic National Israel!

    Now here is your problem! The Israel that is cut off is the Israel that God "will graft them back in again" (v. 27). The Israel that has "stumbled" and "fallen" is the same Israel that God has ordained they will not remain stumbled and fallen but will be restored.

    Saved Gentiles are NEVER called "Jacob" as "Jacob" is reserved in Scripture to refer to ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL in its FALLEN condition. The Israel God has rejected that salvation might come to the Gentiles will be saved by God when the "fulleness of the Gentiles come in" or the full elect God is calling out from among them:

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


    The Israel he is speaking about above is the Israel that "concerning the gospel...are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE"

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    But with regard to God's elective purposes they are the ELECT NATION which God will save after all the Gentile elect have been saved when Christ returns and it at that moment when they see him coming they will be saved - Rev. 1:7

    Why can't Christians clearly see this? (1) Because they think salvation promises given to the Jews but are NOW being administered to the Gentiles means they are no longer applicable by God to the Jews - FALSE! (2) Because Gentiles are now partakers of the same gospel benefits and promises they have become "ignorant of this mystery....and wise in your own conceits"

    Neither Remnant elect Israel, nor Spiritual Israel have "stumbled" and have "fallen" or have been rejected by God, cut off, and only "some" saved but this is ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL and it is those who have been cut off that will be grafted in again, those who have stumbled have not permently fallen - "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:"

    For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    Hence, the present day application of Jewish termonolgy to Gentile saints is only for the purpose to demonstrate the same salvation promises to elect Israel are applicable to Gentiles BUT NOTHING MORE THAN THIS.
     
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  11. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    Great observation, Brother, and I agree 100%. We are grafted in, which is the Biblical description. The accusation of "Replacement Theology" is not really so different in its use than the Left accusing Conservatives of racism. There is no real substance to the accusation, just an emotional outburst with little or no thought behind it.
     
  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I am tired of repeating myself. If the Billy Graham Association carries more weight with you than the Bible than further discussion is useless.

    And you did not address my point about believing vs. seeing. Not that I expected you to. Anyway I am done here.
     
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  13. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Answer: There is no verse. Well, there is in the Scofield Bible. As we used to say at BJU, "The Scofield Bible with King James Notes!" A lot of our current wretched theology came from that monstrous work.
     
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  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    What you are repeating is irrational because its a denial that more than one person can be saved in a crowd which we all know is false. Multiple people can be saved at one time and history has proved that over and over again. Just because multiple people are saved at once does not deny salvation is individual and just because Israel will look upon him whom they have peirced and be saved at once does not deny individual salvation (Rom. 1:7).

    My questions with regard to Romans 11 cannot be answered directly and straightforward simply because it is obvious to any objective reader that the first two answers do not make any contextual sense. Hence, the view that Paul is speaking either about generational remnant elect Jews or spiritual Israel (mixture of saved Jews and gentiles) is blatantly false.

    Hence, Romans 11:25-27 is referring to "Jacob" or lost Israel. Just as God forsook Israel as a nation when they rejected Christ and yet a remnant of Jews were still be saved, likewise, this passage refers to Israel as a nation will be saved and only a remnant will remain lost.
     
  15. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Are you even reading what I am writing?I do not deny that multiple people can be saved at one time. The issue is not how many but in what way.

    There is no verse that teaches that there will be a nationwide conversion of Jews by seeing Jesus. That is Scofield, not Scripture.
     
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  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I have read what you have said, but apparently it seems you are suffering from amensia. Are not these your own words:

    Being saved en masse or being saved individually is an either/or scenario. - Asterisktom; Post #6

    "en masse" is about "how many" and nothing to do about "what way." What way is the only possible way of salvation prior to Abraham and after Abraham till now - the gospel of Jesus Christ.


    Are you trying to convince yourself of this? I don't recall ever quoting from "Scofield" but only quoting from scripture. I don't even own a scofield Bible and never have read its footnotes. I have placed scripture and only scripture before you and what have you done? Carefully avoided dealing with direct questions concerning those scriptures. That is precisely why you didn't quote the latter half of the very post you have used for this post.
     
  17. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Quit trying to be a mind reader. I didn't quote the latter half because I apparently don't have as much time as you. I have been traveling through Central America for months now and have other business to attend to as well. Later on I will look at what you are referring to and will respond.

    About Scolfield, I meant the whole system. You may not have his Bible but your pastor or whoever did. His system is much more pervasive than you seem to recognize.
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It seems you are the one trying to be a mind reader. I have never sat underneath any Pastor or teacher who used the Scofield system. I am a Post-tribber historical pre-millennialist. You have been the one attempting to be the mind reader and thus far have failed.
     
  19. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I don't need to read your mind. I just need to read your posts to see your indebtedness, whether you recognize it or not, to the whole system that Scofield popularized. Your being a post-tribber is a relatively minor variation on the points in this thread.
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So, if you cannot deal with the Biblical evidence placed right in front of you, then you resort to theological classifications. But you are wrong again. I have never set under any Pastor, professor and took a course in scofieldism, pre-tribbism, etc. Why don't you just stop making charges you know nothing about and deal with the evidence that I placed before you.
     
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