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History of Dispensational Theology and Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Humblesmith, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Old Reg. Me again. [​IMG]

    They will be included at that time in the eternal home called New Jerusalem because the Bible says that one day "all of Israel will be saved."

    They may have the same status as the OT Saints, not part of the Bride of Christ, but clearly part of the New Jerusalem. Hope that helps.
    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Not really! Dispensational doctrine is that God has two peoples, a heavenly people which is the Church, and an earthly people, which is Israel. You now have both of them located at the same place. :D
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    But of course scripture says the New Jerusalem is the Church.

    Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    </font>[/QUOTE]I can always give Scripture, when properly interpreted, a hearty AMEN!
     
  3. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Rhetorician writes:
    "Have I shown my bias and prejudice?"
    You mean such exists in this debate? 'Say it isn't SO, Ethel!'
    Ed
     
  4. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Okay, you asked the question, I gave the answer. But I also forgot GH believes the New Jerusalem is the Bride and not a literal place, even though here is page 2 (as Paul Harvey would say) - a definite description of a physical city, replete with dimensions:

     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jersualem, and to an inumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirit of just men made perfect." - Hebrews 12:22-23.

    Both Jews and Gentiles whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ, they are belong to heavenly Jerusalem in the heaven, where God, the Father dwells and with the angels too. There is only one family in the heaven. We all have one Father-God & only one Saviour is Jesus Christ.

    OldRegular and I and other amills believe New Jerusalem is a literal place, not just 'spiritually'.

    Many Jews and Gentiles who already died throughout centuries, are belong to Christ's are now living in the New Jerusalem, where Christ dwells right now. It is a literal place. New Jerusalem is right up there.

    Dispensationalism is a false doctrine, it teaches there is spearated between of Israel and the Church. But, the Bible doesn't teaching it.

    The purpose of Calvary already reconciled both unity together into one - Ephesians 2:11-22.

    There is not a single verse find anywhere in the New Testament teaching that 'Jews only' shall possess their own land-'Israel' as nation again beyond Christ's coming. That is man-made doctrine. I disagree with them. I rather follow what the Bible saying. Because I understand clear what is the purpose of Calvary is all about.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  6. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

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    Lewis Sperry Chafer:
    "the individual Jew is now divinely reckoned to be as much in need of salvation as the individual Gentile (Rom. 3:9).
    (Vol. 3, Page 105.)

    "it is also as clearly stated that no blood could ever avail for any remission of sin other than the blood of Christ. We conclude, therefore, that the nation Israel will yet be saved and her sins removed forever through the blood of Christ."
    (Vol. 3, Page 107.)

    "God is righteously free to act in behalf of sinners only on the ground of the fact that the Lamb of God has taken away their sins.
    (Vol. 3, Page 108.)

    The meaning of DPT's quote is not crystal clear, but as far as dispensationals teaching that there are two salvations, one for Israel and one for the church, it is simply not true. It teaches, and has always taught, that as far as salvation goes, all are one in Christ Jesus.

    It does teach that there are promises made to national Israel that are not made to the church. He made promises to Israel and not to the Philistines. Big deal. Disagree if you like, it's a free country. But just don't go around insinuating that dispensationalism teaches some kind of heresy related to how Israel and the church are saved, because it doesn't.
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Romans 3:9 have do nothing with physical nation. This verse talking about individual. This verse telling us, both Jew and Gentile are same as we are all sinners. That why Christ died on the cross for the whole world - 1 John 2:2.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  8. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

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    Good. I'm glad we agree.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Actually, the covenant of Jeremiah chapter 31 is apply to us as Church that Christ died on the cross. It already fulfilled. When Christ took the supper, and drink the cup, and he said, 'This is the new testament', he spoken of the new covenant.

    There is no separate between Israel and Church. Christ died for the whole world both Jews and Gentiles.

    Humblesmith, probably, I think I misunderstand you, what you was trying to tell me.

    Bible teaches us only one plan of salvation for whole world by through the faith, even through the covenant of Galatians chapter 3.

    Old Testament saints' faith toward Calvary. New Testament saints' faith backward Calvary. Both are same on the boat. Simple.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

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    Regarding salvation, we agree. That is my simple message in this thread...that dispensationalism teaches an orthodox view of salvation..as you said, in regards to salvation, OT saints point toward calvary, NT saints point backward. All in the same boat. Only through faith in Christ will anyone be saved, at any time, from any people group. This is a biblical view, and the "mainstream" of dispensationalists have always taught this.

    Now, dispensationalists may disagree with amil's on the application of Jer. 31, and who the coventant promises are made to. But this is not a salvation issue. I'll leave that for another thread.
     
  11. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Ro 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people?

    :2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

    Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


    Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


    Presently, there are "Two people", one is being used to "provoke" the other to "Jealousy".

    However, "IN CHRIST" there is only "ONE", no Jews, No Greeks.

    Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    The fact that God dealt with Israel different (L/P) than Jesus does the Church, (HG) is clear to any who reads, but what doesn't seem "so obvious" to some is that the "L/P" system is the only way God can/will deal with Israel, and as long as Jesus is dealing with the Gentiles, Israel is going to remain "Blinded". (Pre trib rapture)
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Good morning.

    Me4Him,

    Romans chapter 11 do nothing with the physical nation. Verse 25 is not talking about phyiscal nation, it talks about God's elect all will be completed at Christ's coming, when Christ builts his church(people of Matt. 16:18) will be done or completed, so, the result of all elect(both Jew & Gentile) shall be saved.

    Romans chapter 11 talks about two groups of the individual- Jews and Gentiles.

    First, we as Gentiles were strangers and separated from the commonwealth of Israel. Now, we are no longer stranger, and belong to commonwealth of Israel, because Christ reconciled both Jews and Gentiles unity together became one body by through Calvary.

    Not hard to read the New Testament, we can understannd what the purpose of Calvary, and the gospel is all about. Even, we are share the same covenant, which God gave to Abraham, we are all in the same seed which is in Christ - Galatians chapter 3.

    Also, God's plan of salvation never change since from the Old Testament period to today. Salvation base upon the faith only. Many O.T. saints were saved by their faith toward Jesus Christ. Same as we(N.T. saints) are saved by our faith backward Jesus Christ.

    Also, Bible teaches us there is only two ages, not seven ages according to dispensationism teachings. Right now, we are this age. This present age have been last for about 6,000 years since creation. This present age shall be finish follow at the coming of Christ. Then, the next age shall be eternality, everything all shall be immortality according to Romans 8:19-23.

    Dispensationalism doctrine is complex and confusion to people today. Dispensationalism stresses there are two different programs for Israel and Church. They seem fail to understand the purpose of Calvary, what it is all about.

    Nothing in the New Testament say anything about future restoration earthly nation beyond Christ's coming. 1 Peter 2:9 tells us, that we are "an holy nation", it speaks of spiritually meaning. We are through Jesus Christ, as we are called as elect.

    Also, almost every dispensationlists are premill, they stress or emphasis that premillennial's purpose is for Israel as physical nation that Jews shall possess their own land and reign for 1000 years. For 'JEWS' only??? Bible doesn't saying it. The kingdom of God is spiritual, and it is from above. The Kingdom of God is now within us through Holy Spirit, as we are bring the gospel of the kingdom over the world. We do not have to wait for the coming of physical 'kingdom of God' at the second coming. The kingdom of heaven/God already within us for nearly 2000 years since Christ came and brought it to the Church.

    Early Church understood that God only have one family. Even, early church intepreted Israel is the church, obivously, they understood Calvary reconciled both Jew and Gentile unity together became one, so, we are all Israel.

    Why cannot accept what the Bible saying about the unity of the body of Christ, and God only have one plan of salvation of all ages(throughout all centuries)?

    I consider, John Darby caused churches into split or division because of his own new teachings on Israel & Church. C.I. Scofield was not the first person to developed dispensationalism. Darby did.

    I reject dispensationalism teaching, rather follow what the Bible saying according Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Dispensationalism is a "System" which explains the "TRINITY" of God and his "Different functions".

    God the father was revealed in the OT to the Jews.

    Jesus the Son was revealed in the NT, which the Jew rejected and Gentiles accepted.

    God used the "Holy Spirit" in the OT, but "IT" (spirit) was send in Jesus's name in the NT, therefore it's the "Holy Ghost" or "Ghost of Jesus".

    Dispensation does nothing more that divide the "TRINITY" into it's "repective parts" and "Time periods" in which they function.

    When Jesus touches down on "Mt Olives", (first resurrection) he'll remain here for a 1000 years, which is a "DAY" with God, the "Seventh day of rest", or MK, this is the "Literal Kingdom" promised to the Jews in the OT, Jesus/church age being a "mystery" not revealed to them.


    Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. (mountain=Kingdom)

    Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

    Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    Zec 8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

    5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

    Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    This "KINGDOM" only last a 1000 years, (7th day) then Satan is turned loose for a short season, (Gog/Magog) the "New earth" kingdom has "NO END".
     
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The operative word is "distinct" not "separate".

    Israel and the Church are distinct from one another. This does not destroy the unity of the Body of Christ.

    The Trinity is one God, three distinct persons in one divine essence yet the unity of the Godhead is not destroyed.

    Someone quoted from Revelation 21 showing that both Israel and the Church were part of the translated kingdom.

    Revelation 21
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
    14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
    15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


    HankD
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    DeafPosttrib

    I agree with your point about dispensationalism [Colossians 2:8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Dispensationalism is the false philosophy of the man John Nelson Darby which has crept, apparently unawares through the Scofield Bible, into the Churches. Very SAD! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  16. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Old Reg, you may not realize it, but you believe in dispensationalism, too, - the difference is you believe in two dispensations and I believe there are more than the two you believe in - the OT dispensation and the NT dispensation. ;) [​IMG]

    See chart for details
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    LE
    My View of The Church, call it two dispensations if it makes you happy. It is consistent with the Baptist Faith and Message which cannot be said of Dispensationalism!

    The Church

    The Church exists in and through the Lord Jesus Christ and so is a distinctive New Testament reality [New Geneva Bible, page 1864]. However, as a people of the promised New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33] which was instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ [Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-13], who, as the incarnate God, is the promised seed of Abraham [Galatians 3:16] and the promised Messiah [John 4:25,26], there is a continuity with spiritual Israel, God’s covenant people of the Old Testament. The predominant teaching of the Church since Pentecost is that God has only one people and that the New Testament Church is the Israel of God, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

    Scripture passages that teach that God has only one people are:

    Galatians 3:29, KJV
    29. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Romans 2:28,29, KJV
    28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29. But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

    Colossians 2:11, KJV
    11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    John P.Newport, a premillennialist, in The Lion and The Lamb [page 196] says of these passages:

    “If believers are the true sons of Abraham, the true circumcision, then we must conclude that the Church is the true spiritual Israel, even though the word itself may not be used of the Church. This I believe to be confirmed by the expression, the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16

    Galatians 6:16, KJV
    16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    Jesus Christ told the Jewish doubters in John 8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

    The Apostle Paul, in his epistle to the church at Galatia, wrote:

    Galatians 3:8-9, KJV
    8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    The 11th chapter of Hebrews tells us that the Old Testament Saints considered themselves strangers and pilgrims on earth and vividly portrays their longing to see that city whose builder and maker is God. That city is the the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn [Hebrews 12:22-24], and the chaste virgin bride of Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 11:2].
     
  18. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

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    How many times do I have to say it? How many quotes will it take to prove it? I'll say it again, the majority of dispensationalists have never taught that there are two plans of salvation. I went to great lengths to show this in the OP. I even repeated the key quotes to show it again. Please either stop saying this, or show me where I'm wrong.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    How many times do I have to say it? How many quotes will it take to prove it? I'll say it again, the majority of dispensationalists have never taught that there are two plans of salvation. I went to great lengths to show this in the OP. I even repeated the key quotes to show it again. Please either stop saying this, or show me where I'm wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]The logical outcome of the argument that God has two separate peoples is that there are two ways of salvation. That is the great error of dispensationalism, not their erroneous teaching on the pretrib "rapture".
     
  20. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Why do you say that, Old Reg? The OT saints were saved by looking forward to the cross (starting in the Garden of Eden with the first sacrifice for atonement). NT saints are saved by looking back at the cross where the sacrifice for atonement was completed. I don't see how those are two separate ways of salvation. Can you explain?
     
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