House of merchandise

Unfortunately, in our English language the word "church," coming from the Scottish word kirk, usually means a building. However, the original Greek word translated church in our NT never, and I mean never, it its whole history (classical Greek, Septuagint Greek, NT Greek) meant a building. It always means some kind of assembly: of believers, of the crowd yelling about Diana of the Ephesians, of the official assembly of the Jews in their early history after Egypt.

 

At the risk of sidetracking things I'll make a couple of quick points here.

(1) Worship is a very complicated issue in the Bible and I don't expect to solve it here. But there are two main words translated worship in the NT: proskuneo, which almost always means to literally and physically bow down, and latreuo, which means to worship in the sense of serviing God. There are people in any church service who are thus worshipping. But that is almost always individually during the service, not as a church.

(2) Now to answer your question more directly, sure, I believe we should worship when we go to the market or trim the verge as well as when we go to church. We are to "pray without ceasing," the Bible teaches, bowing to God and His might at all times, and we are to witness to "every creature" and be kind to all, helping others as we can--acts of worship.

(3) The term "worship service" usually means corporate worship--that is, the whole church worshipping together, as opposed to individual worship. This may or may not occur in a church service; for example when everyone bows together for prayer. (I'm for this, obviously.) But that is not among the stated purposes of the church service in the Bible. In fact, there are no NT passages whatsoever which portray corporate worship. So again, the Sunday service of the church is not really a worship service.

I hope this helps clear things up. :type:

 

Where is the potters house? does it yet exist? are not our church houses hollowed places. I

 

Hi, Danny. Welcome to the Baptist Board! :wavey:

The only potter's house in the Bible is in Jer. 18, and I have never heard that used to refer to the church of Jesus Christ.

Yes, our church houses are hallowed places if by that you mean "set apart for a sacred purpose." However, to me it is just as sacred to build each other up (Heb. 10:25) and train believers for serving God (Eph. 4:11-12) as it is to worship. So I don't see how that is relevant.

 

So apparently you have a problem with a building being set apart for the use of christians joining together in corporate worship and learning of God's word.

 

:applause:

Would you care to stop with the innuendos? What I have a problem with is not doing things Biblically. How about if you provide some Scriptural backing for your position? You have not yet done so and you have not yet interacted with the Scripture I've given.

So, where does the Bible teach we worship corporately? I'll be waiting--in vain, no doubt.

 

I worship alone, with two or three other people, or in a building. It doesn't matter to me...the Holy Spirit is within me and that's all I need.

I enjoy going to church, but it is just a building that we use to gather together and worship. It would be the same thing if it were in a tent, in the woods, or in a house.

In the old days (1800's), the school house was used for church on Sundays. The building matters not. It is 'our' building we should be concerned about. It houses the Son of God.

 

Very well said! :applause:

 

Your definition of worship is too broad. In all we do, whether we eat or drink, we are to glorify Christ, but eating and drinking is not worship.

And I'll leave it there.

 

And you are misrepresenting my position. I never said that eating and drinking were worship and I don't believe they are. I said very specifically what worship is. And I'll leave it there unless you want to try again to understand my position.

 

If I'm misunderstanding you, then you need to rephrase what you define as worship.

These are acts of charity, yes, and they glorify Christ, but I wouldn't call them acts of worship. That's why I said your definition is too broad.

 

Then it is my fault that you thought I believed that eating and drinking are worship? Come now, "methinks thou dost protest too much."

I based my view in a previous post that serving God is a form of worship on the meaning of the Greek word latreuo, which appears in the NT 21 times. It is translated as "worship" in the KJV in Acts 7:42, 24:14, Phil. 3:3, Heb. 10:2. All the other times it is translated as "serve," often in an obvious worship context.

The Thayer definition for the word is:
1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
2a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
2b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
2b1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office
The Liddell-Scott definition is: "to work for hire or pay, to be in servitude, serve, Xen. [2.] λ. τινί to be bound or enslaved to, Soph., Eur., etc.; c. acc. pers. to serve, Eur.?0--metaph., λατρ. πέτρᾳ, of Prometheus, Aesch.;μόχθοις λατρ. Soph.;λ. νόμοις to obey, Xen. [3.] to serve the gods, λ. Φοίβῳ Eur.?0 c. acc. cogn., πόνον λ. to render them due service, id=Eur."

The Analytic Lexicon definition is: "in the NT, as carrying out religious duties in a spirit of worship serve, minister, officiate (HE 8.5); worship, venerate (MT 4.10)"

Now, to serve another human being in the name of Christ is to serve God, and thus to worship God. You are entirely welcome to disagree, of course, and say that to serve others is not to serve God, or to postulate contrary to the linguistic evidence and NT usage, that serving God is not the same as worshipping Him. No skin off of my theological nose.

Take care. :type:

 

Thank you John of Japan. I'm guilty of the popular belief about "worship services" on Sunday morn and I have decided to do a study of the topic (just as soon as I finish a study on the Holy Spirit). I believe that yours is the correct (although un-popular) view of NT Christian "assembly meetings".

I likewise see nothing wrong with a book store located at the church building site. I do oppose fundraising for church activities for the same reason I oppose them for Little League, Soccer or Boy Scouts. And the reason for that is if I want to send my kids to soccer camp then I should pay for it, not my neighbor who happens to be shopping at WalMart the day my kids are selling candy.

Tom

 

I'm glad I was a help, Tom. God bless!:type:

 

You said was that we were to worship "all day every day everywhere," which sounds very close to "whatever you do should be worship." Natually, that's how I took it.

My allusion to eating and drinking was in direct reference to 1 Cor. 10:31, which again is very close to what you said. You say that's NOT what you said, and I'll go with that despite your wording almost to the contrary.

Let's move on.

According to you, worship equals service and service equals worship.

You also said that the assembly was not for worship, but for "fellowship, mutual encouragement, and for the pastors and other preachers to teach and encourage the people to serve God."

Am I correct in concluding that you are saying that fellowship, encouragement, teaching and preaching are NOT service?

 

It would be nice if you didn't interpret what I said but simply took it at face value. In post #63 I said, "Now to answer your question more directly, sure, I believe we should worship when we go to the market or trim the verge as well as when we go to church. We are to "pray without ceasing," the Bible teaches, bowing to God and His might at all times, and we are to witness to "every creature" and be kind to all, helping others as we can--acts of worship."

If we are to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17) and prayer is a form of worship (do you disagree?), then we are to worship without ceasing. It is as simple as that.

This is a great simplification of what I said, but I'll let you run with it for now.

Actually, I thought that I was pointing out what Scripture said, not just giving an opinion. The Bible clearly gives the purposes for the assembly in the Scripture I quoted.

Fellowship is not service. Encouragement is not service. Teaching and preaching are service, but they are done by individuals in the assembly, not as a corporate worship--and corporate worship is usually what is meant when people call the church service a "worship service."

Now we come to the crux of the matter. I ask again as I have before in this thread, where in the NT does it describe the assembly of believers, the church, as corporate worship, or even as worship per se? :type:

 

This is the kind of thing I'm getting at. No, it doesn't mean to be in prayer every second of the day as you imply. The sense is just as Christ taught in Luke 18:1-8. The widow wasn't in the court of the king every second of the day, but she came frequently and did not give up coming to request justice. And that's the sense of 1 Thess. 5:17.

Which is our different apprehensions of the scope of the idea. Just as the word service is used to describe menial tasks such as rotating one's tires, it is also used to describe serving the Lord's supper. But it's clear that one kind of service is an act of adoration of God, i.e. worship, and the other is simply done for hire, which isn't worship at all.

It appears, however, that you're equating the two.

If you want a verbatim Scripture that states that the assembly is for corporate worship, you won't find one. Just as you won't find a verbatim Scripture that says the star of Bethlehem was supernatural. (Allusion to a past discussion.) But you don't let that stop you asserting that very thing. However, the discharge of religious duties and the exercise of spiritual gifts is the stated purpose for the assembly, and that is worship of a nature quite distinct from our acts of charity outside of it.

In addition, there is a decorum and order to be observed in the assembly that isn't commanded outside of it, which clearly indicates that what is going on in the assembly is collective or corporate. We collectively adore God through song, we collectively pray, and we collectively listen to the exhortations from God's word. That's corporate worship. :1_grouphug: It isn't complicated at all.

Now you're correct (obviously) in stating that our church buildings are not temples, but to say the assembly isn't for worship, or that the worship isn't corporate for the reasons that you stated, is, in my estimation failing to see the forest for the trees.

 

It really would be very nice if you would simply ask me what I believe "pray without ceasing" means instead of deciding on your own what I mean. That's the second time you've done that. It's getting to be a habit with you and it hinders the discussion since I then have to correct your misapprehensions.

I do not believe at all that "pray without ceasing" means to be in prayer every second of the day, and I didn't even imply it. The meaning of the English phrase "all day every day" and the more recent American English idiom "24/7" is not that you are involved in that activity every single second of the day or night. For example, if I say, "I'm ready to play pingpong 24/7," it is obvious to all who hear me say it that I don't mean I won't eat, sleep, talk to my wife, etc. It means that I'm in an attitude of loving pingpong all the time. Just so, we should be ready for prayer and be walking with God at all times.

This is the third time you've decided you know what I believe. I think I've grown tired of correcting your misapprehensions.

How about just a passage that states generally that the assembly is for corporate worship instead of verbatim? How about even a term like "corporate worship" in the Bible? How about a NT event where a group of people are said to be worshipping. How about any Scripture at all to back up your position?

And now you've said something that makes sense. I believe you've finally began to think a little more deeply about this thing--no offense. You do have a good point here. You don't give any Scripture, but maybe I can help you. (I can argue both sides of this issue, but am obviously much stronger on the side I've been presenting.) Check out Acts 12:5.

 

I did not read every post in this thread, so excuse me if someone has already said what I am about to say.

The historical context of Christ's statement regarding making His house a house of merchandize is important. The priests received their fiscal support through tithes. Those tithes would often come in the form of animals, grain, and meat from the sacrifices. What they had done was to make the Outer Court of the Temple into a market place where they sold these things (“merchandise”) to turn it into cash. It was not wrong that they were doing that. Christ condemned WHERE they were doing it because it changed the focus of the Temple from worship to merchandizing.

Worship is merely an expression of the value we give something or someone. Therefore, we should exclude anything from the Church that does not give worship or express the value we put upon God or His Truth. Therefore, a bookstore in the Church that sells books that teach people truth to help them worship and live for Christ would not fall into the catagory of merchandize. If it is there to merely generate income (profit) for the Church, that would be merchandizing.