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Featured How 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Mar 21, 2024.

  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Its no secret most Christians appeal to 2 Cor 5:19 as a proof text that the scripture teaches that Christ died for all men without exception, for it reads:

    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Many see the word world here assumes that it means everyone without exception. However the word world here is defined in a limited sense in that it does means:

    kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

    an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, or der.

    any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

    Any divinely ordered collection of particulars in the divine scheme of things is a World !

    The word particulars is defined:

    of or relating to a single or specific person, thing,group, class, occasion, etc., rather than to others or all; special rather than general:

    Now with this in mind, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is particular in that none of its citizens have their sins imputed to them, which is plainly stated of them here:

    "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"


    Which Act of God constitutes this World as a forgiven world, because we read in another place the consequence of non imputation of sin by God is this:

    Rom 4:7-8

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


    That world of particular individuals in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven world whose sins are covered, and God will not charge them with their sins, not ever !


    Now we know this cant apply to all without exception because there are individuals God will remember their sins against them, so they are still being charged with them, here Rev 18:4-5

    And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    Now these who shall have their sins remembered by God, cannot be of the World of 2 Cor 5:19, which means and confirms that the World in that scripture supports limited atonement, the reconciled world is limited to certain particulars !
     
    #1 Brightfame52, Mar 21, 2024
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2024
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  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful! Great! Beautiful!

    God-Honoring! God-Worshipping! Bible Accurate!

    Very Nice Job!!!
     
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  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Those in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 dont have sin charged to them, so they are totally Justified from sin. Now does that apply to all without exception ? Of course not. Those in Rev 18:4-5 have their sins charged to them and God remembers their sins ! 2
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    While reconciliation is universal salvation is not. Reconciliation touches the whole human race. Salvation is limited to the few who believe, for salvation depends on faith and belief.
    A person may stand before God with every sin covered by the blood of the Son, but if he is still in Adam then death rules over him. There is no hope of resurrection.

    Are not all men sinners, ungodly, without strength? These are terms that the bible uses to describe all men prior to being in Christ.
    Rom_5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    Rom_3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Christ Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God. We are all sinners so you would have to conclude that He died for all men.
    Rom 5:8-10 NKJV But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. {9} Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. {10} For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The world of 2 Cor 5:19 is free from sin. That lets us know its not the same world here thats condemned 1 Cor 11:32

    32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The OP is problematic for a couple of readons:

    1. In its pre-edited form the use of logical fallacies disqualified the argument. (In its current form it is an argument.

    2. The OP cannot stand without excluding verse 18.

    The reason is that the "world" is singular and means "the world" as described in the larger passage (mankind). Verse 19 is descriptive of the ministry given (that men be reconciled).

    So obviously this is not a proof of limited atonement (although one can read anything into a text should he or she have that inclination).

    The "world" here is "mankind" (a collection of all human beings, representatively....not dogs and cats and rocks and trees).

    But it would be equally a mistake to conclude that God reconciling the world to Himself means that all men are reconciled to God (hence verse 18, 19 being a supportive text).
     
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that 2co and 1Co are different letters. You cherry pick words form all over the bible to support your view but context shows your views are wrong. Try reading things in context BF, that will help you clear up the many errors you have in your understanding of scripture.
     
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  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Doesnt matter if its different letters, its the same recipients.

    1 Cor 1:2

    2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

    2 Cor 1:1

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
     
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  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with you. Its Two different worlds, the one is 1 Cor 11:32 is condemned and distinguished from the elect

    The world in 2 Cor 5:19 no sin sin is charged to it. Its Forgiven and Justified
     
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  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
    2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

    The world here means the human race generally, without distinction of nation, age, or rank. The whole world was alienated from God, and He sought to have it reconciled.
    It was the offended party {God}, not the offending {man}, that sought to be reconciled; and this shows the strength of Gods' love.
    Barnes

    1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

    Context again shows the error in your thinking BF.
    1Co 11:27 Therefore
    whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

    Irreverant conduct at the Lord’s table {1Co_11:27} invites God’s corrective discipline; so we should judge ourselves so we would not be judged. If we will discipline ourselves, the Lord will not need to do it with His hand of correction! Guzik


    2Co 5:18-19 relates to God reconciling the world to Himself through Christ. 1Co 11:32 relates to Christians that partake of the bread & the wine in an unworthy manner as we see stated in 1Co 11:27.

    From what you have been posting it seems you think world only has the meaning the you want to put to it. As I said your cherry picking of verses does not support your view.
     
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    How Jn 1:29 teaches limited atonement !

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    The world here is limited, its a particular world. Again the word world means:

    any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort .

    The world here in Jn 1:29 is limited to all them that have had their sins taken away ! 3
     
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  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The world in 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have the sin of unbelief charged to it, or its disobedience, because if it did, it couldn't be reconciled to God.
     
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    1 Corinthians 11:26–32 (NASB95): For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
    27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
    28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
    29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
    30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
    31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
    32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.


    2 Corinthians 5:18–21 (NASB95): Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
    21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


    No, you are wrong here.

    God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. Yet we still have the ministry of reconciliation. When we are reconciled then we are no longer a part of the world. You are missing that the world is condemned for rejecting the Light, a judgment founded not in their own sin (they remain in their sin) but in the One to Whom all judgment has been given.


    What you have done is taken two words out of their own context. You cherry picksd out of two entirely different epistles to make a case Scripture never makes.
     
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  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I dont see how Im wrong. One world is condemned 1 Cor 11:32 and one world is reconciled with no sin charged to it 2 Cor 5:19
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know. What you are missing is that those not condemned were once so. We were at one time enemies of God.
     
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @Brightfame52 what do we know about Christ Jesus?

    The bible tells us Christ did not come to condemn but to save the world (John 3:17) and He was God's sacrificial lamb who died to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29). He came to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32) and since all are sinners (Romans 3:23) He died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2). He will draw all people to Himself (John 12:32) and those that believe will be saved (John 3:16) and those that reject Him will be lost (John 3:18)

    But if we use your logic since John the baptist was speaking to Jews then the world he would be referring to would be just a select group of Jews, no gentiles included.

    Or we could look at it from a Calvinistic perspective. Since all are sinners and He came to take away the sins of all sinners then all are unconditionally saved. Remember that under Calvinism only the elect have their sins covered. So you have now put yourself in the position of being a universalist.

    BF you continue to take verses out of context and read into them what you need to find. Because of this you have fallen into error.
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    No they were never condemned, yes they were enemies, but it was not imputed to them. God doesnt condemned sin people He doesnt charge with sin. Not that they are not sinners, but God doesnt impute it to them 2 Cor 5:19

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Thats a Gospel Truth by the way !
     
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  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The world of Jn 1:29 its sin was taken away, so its unbelief was taken away. If one dies in unbelief and in their sins, they were not part of that world of Jn 1:29, impossible
     
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  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Do you not believe the bible BF. All are sinners, all are condemned. There is not a special group that never sinned or were being held responsible for the sins they committed.

    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,. Do you see an exclusion clause in there, no you do not.

    Are you now going to forget the verse that Calvinists love to throw out as a proof text Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not.one; BF you are being inconsistent in your theology.

    You are trying to build your theology on cherry picked verses and ignoring the rest of the bible. With that method it is not the bible you believe but yourself. That is a sure plan for disaster.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is "your truth", but I do not believe in subjective truth.

    God was in Christ not counting their sins against them. This means the world (mankind). Likewise, there is a ministry of reconciliation where we plead for men to be reconciled.

    You are reading too much of your ideas into the text.
     
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