How (and What) would you decide?

Clint,

o/~ I stand amazed in the presence, of Robert the academe. o/~

Seriously, though. I know I'm new here, but you'd be surprised what I've learned from the secular Ivy League college from which I got my graduate degree. I learned that there are very effective strategies out there for taking the Bible out of absolutely anything you want to teach. It's especially easy to do with literature (my specialty), but it can be done with anything.

Anything. This is what I've learned from seminarians, who, being on God's side, I assumed would never stand by while the Bible was denuded of its essential doctrines and only left standing on the specious merit ascribed to it by the very tools used to dismantle it: The Bible is no different than any other piece of literature studied or taught in any other secular institution when it comes to its usefulness as a steppingstone to academic achievement and personal prominence in a seminary setting.

Let's remember that the Bible is different than any other piece of literature. Believing what it says can get you saved from eternal damnation. It cannot be dissected and its truth value cannot be measured by critical or rhetorical devices of our own making. If one reads it, one finds that there's a lot to be learned about worship. The pedantic categories into which its clear precepts are forced in an effort to accomadate them to our worldly lifestyles eviscerate them.

Oh, and Robert? I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm very interested to hear what you think I don't know I'm doing. I'm sure you've guessed that I believe what the Bible says about a pre-tribulational rapture. Don't think I don't see Trick Choice #5, though (Biblical Rapture), for those who can't make up their minds, wish to skip the research and just Feel Important, or are just too confused. I know what you're doing, but I'll play along and pick #1, Pre-trib rapture.

Work may keep me away from the computer until Wednesday evening, so please be patient if I do not reply until then. I'll be sure to check back here to "see what am doing."

--DAR

 

Karen, you may have hit on something here. Pragmatic may fit into the normative category, but it describes very well the reasoning of many Baptists in our day - if it works, do it; if it doesn't work, don't do it. In other words, the decision to use drama, puppets, etc., is results-oriented. I hope I'm not misrepresenting you.......</font>[/QUOTE]No,you aren't, but I would clarify that principles of Scripture would still be the way to measure what works and what doesn't. There are all kinds of ways to get people into church that would have "results", but many of them would break what I believe are Scriptural principles.

Karen

 

OK, Robert, I'll desist and let you get back to your puppet show. But don't think I don't know that you're being deliberately deceptive.

First, though, I'll do my best to tie up the loose ends about which you've expressed some concern.

I'm sorry. I overlooked answering this directly because I thought the answer was obvious from my previous reply. I said I'd have no problem with puppet shows as entertainment for my daughter on, say, a Saturday afternoon... well, you can go back and read. This question basically boils down to how you feel about wasting the time the Lord gives you. If you don't mind, then I guess it's OK. Whatever's right in your own eyes, right? People are dying and going to hell every second. You wanna have a puppet show or give them the incorruptible seed that'll save them? Glass of cold water or a styrofoam handshake?

Then you didn't have to ask the question. Clearly you're trying to play deceptive games here. I won't have any part of that, so you can rest assured that this will be my last post on this matter.

You seem annoyed that we're not talking about puppets, so I'll try to keep this brief. It wasn't a trick when I used it, because I ascribe absolute meaning to the term. You don't, as evidenced by your weighting the other terms as equal in value. Either you're trying to trick people out of the truth, you don't believe the term "Biblical" means anything (perhaps because you have no Bible, no sure word - who knows?), or you're just trying to be clever. Maybe it was a trick when I used it? The short answer is no, but I won't clutter the thread explaining it all to you here. You can go back to my church web site if you're really curious, or if you find me too annoying.

I was not. None of those matter if you ascribe any absolute meaning whatsoever to the adjective "Biblical." You don't, so it's a moot point, I suppose.

Well, that's not a parallel comparison. From among a set of amorphous academic categories, any one of them could have a relative "truth value" or be partially true. But remember also that in basic logic, they teach you that a compound statement with one false part is entirely false. From among another set of choices, one of which is entirely true, you lump "Biblical" in with the others on the assumption that I'll pick it. Then you get to tell me what "Biblical" really means. This is a clever trick. But you seem to realize that I have your number, so you're not going to pursue the matter. If it was invalid for you to say that I could only pick one of the answers, then why'd you say it? You see, one way, what you're doing is a clever trick, the other way, it's an outright lie (not a "big" lie, but maybe a Clinton lie - a "misrepresentation of the truth," and "invalid statement"). I don't feel comfortable doing intellectual business with people who deal in trickery.

Now, you've asked a lot of other questions in your post, any of which I could post on for pages and pages and pages. You've also not answered some other questions I asked you, but that's OK, since most of them were off topic anyway. Right after all that, you asked us to please get back to the point, so I'll just leave the whole thing right where it is.

I don't know exactly what your motives are. I can only go by what you say. But, by not only your own admission, but by clear exposition, you've shown us that we cannot take what you say seriously. You may, at any time, throw an "invalid" statement out, just to see what happens. Now, I've never utilized that teaching method. Teachers have to work hard to not look like pedants. I know. I've taught. But adopting deceptive methods makes it almost impossible, no matter what your motive.

Adieu.

--DAR

 

DAR:

I love how you tried to jump this into a kjv debate! After all, I'm sure that's why you're really here. Let me guess, anyone who isn't KJVO and doesn't believe all OTHER versions are also tools of Satan are evil apostates doomed for hell, wolves in sheeps clothing. Take your argument to the versions section of the board and I'll be happy to burst your bubble. Oh, and can you do it without bringing all your friends? I enjoy one on one, although I know that without a crowd cheering you on it could get frightening.

DAR:

Down boy! The puppet shows are used with children to help illustrate Bible stories. I've never once seen them used in a church worship service to help adults see the light.
Are you forgetting that church worship services are for Christians to gather and worship God? NOT for preaching hell and damnation to sinners. Church----a body of believers. Have you been taking away the time you've been given to worship and using it to sing to the choir?
I'd just love to hear what you think is the incorruptable seed that should be taught! Nevermind, I guessed already. It isn't Jesus, it's the KJV!

Ya know, you're really going over the edge here with the word biblical. It obviously wasn't used be cause the question could be interpreted as WHICH OF THESE DO YOU BELIEVE TO BE BIBLICAL? Anyone with an ivy league education should have been able to figure that out. My guess is you were a tad bit too eager to jump on the biblical KJVO issue you're using this as an excuse.

You're so paranoid about everything being a conspiracy theory to trick you. Is it because that's how YOU operate? Honesty really IS the best policy, and I know what you're doing. So whaddya say you knock off this little show you're putting on pretending to have an interest in anything to do with anything except for promoting your Nazi-style KJVO beliefs and head over to the correct forum for debating that issue?

And PLEASE don't do the predictable "I don't like your attitude so I ain't gonna" copout.

Later!

 

I would have to agree here. I've seen many churches try this, and it never has really worked all that well for them. As a teaching tool I would say okay, but as a worship tool, no.

B.T.