1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How Autonomous

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Nov 16, 2022.

  1. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    548
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Interesting discussion here

    especially how it relates to missions and unreached areas
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    23,562
    Likes Received:
    862
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It has been claimed that election to an office within the church, whether minister or leader, is found nowhere in the New Testament. However if we consider Acts 14:23 and 2 Corinthians 8:19, people are selected by a stretching out of the hand, i.e. voting. Thus the autonomous authority of the congregation is indeed found in the New Testament.

    And this principle is a Baptist Distinctive, so how come those advocating insurrection are posting the views of other denominations?
     
    #22 Van, Nov 18, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2022
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,881
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your verses don't make that claim.
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,881
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The ordination of elders would be done by those in the denomination who are established and honored leaders from the denomination. The Pastor would be responsible to recommend. The congregation can provide opinion. The ordination council would question and review the candidate for eldership.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    29,185
    Likes Received:
    3,092
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But that creates other issues (as far as being biblical).

    Scripture simply does not provide enough information when it comes to church government.

    We know when churches were being established elders were appointed by an Apostle driven leadership. We know this leadership chose a pastor. And we know the pastor and elders were chosen from within the congregation (they did not come from another church). We know the congregation chose deacons.

    But the council was outside of the congregation and led directly by the Apostles. These were not councils chosen by a denomination and were responsible for several denominations (the congregation in Corinth, for example, would be what we'd consider a different denomination from the congregations in Jerusalem as they held what we would consider denominational differences).
     
  6. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    548
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No doubt in new areas it’s prob a sole pastor

    I’m afraid I may be more presby than most

    it would seemingly cut down on heresy
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,881
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You realize that this is an argument that the RCC makes as well as the Orthodox church. Succession from the Apostles.
    It's actually a biblical pattern, but it went off track when tradition trumped scripture.
    I think the concept of succession is sound, as long as those who pass on the succession remain grounded in God's word.
    Was this not the very core and essence of the Reformation?
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    29,185
    Likes Received:
    3,092
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually I was thinking the same of your position, just wasn't going there because we both obviously disagree with the RCC idea.

    What I am saying is that we KNOW I an right about what is in the Bible concerning the leadership of the Apostles and the council that met in Jerusalem. That is not in question.

    What I am asking is exactly how we can create such a council (which you answered, and I agree) and it be prescribed by Scripture (this is the part I was pointing out).
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    18,665
    Likes Received:
    1,594
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As a former missionary, I'd say that each church only answered to the apostle/missionary who planted it. Even then, there was not institutional authority as in a denomination, but spiritual authority as the believers responded to their discipler, the church planter. Paul wrote to a church he planted, "If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord" (1 Cor. 9:2).

    Being a church history prof, I love the early church and have read a lot on the 1st three centuries, but found no evidence of a denomination until perhaps the 4th century. "Bishops" from that era were local church pastors. Along with most scholars, I put the Catholic religion in the 6th century, though local denominations might have developed in the 4th-5th centuries.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,881
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Faith:
    Baptist
  11. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    548
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is a serious vacuum there

    I blame seeker churches who changed church to consumerism instead of service
     
  12. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    548
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Roughly- how many pastors are in Japan?

    missionaries?
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,881
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A fun listen is John Gerstner's "Handout Church History" at Ligonier Ministries. It's 39 half hour teachings on Church History. It's a great summary for people.

    Handout Church History by John Gerstner | Ligonier Ministries
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,881
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's the theology of "free will" and Charles Finney that imagines humans save humans by making the cross attractive and emotionally compelling. Entertain to bring them in and weave an emotional story to hook them. It is exactly what the mini-series "The Chosen" does with each episode.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    23,562
    Likes Received:
    862
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes they do!

    Note how the ignorant use personal incredulity, not knowing such argumentation is fallacious.


    RGT
    And when they had prayed and fasted and ordained them as elders by election in every church, they commended them to the Lord in Whom they believed.

    NMB
    And they appointed elders by election in every congregation, and prayed and fasted, and committed them to God on whom they believed.

    NOG
    They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.

    GW
    They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.

    GNV
    And when they had ordained them Elders by election in every Church, and prayed, and fasted, they commended them to the Lord in whom they believed.

    EHV
    They had elders elected for them in every church, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted them to the Lord, in whom they believed. ​

    As anyone can see, this verse has been translated in several different ways:
    1) Did the church establish the elders or did Paul and Barnabas pick them?
    2) How was the choice made, by stretching out of hands in a vote (election) or by the edict of Paul and Barnabas?

    Here is the Biblical usage:

    1. to vote by stretching out the hand

    2. to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
    3. to elect, create, appoint
    The conclusion, in light of 2 Corinthians 8:19 which clearly indicates the cause of the action of selection are the church members, is that Acts 14:23 refers to an election by a show of hands.
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,881
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I see. You looked for the least used interpretations and claim they are correct while ignoring the best translations.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    23,562
    Likes Received:
    862
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I looked at what the word means, as used its two places and did not invent an agenda driven translation.
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    18,665
    Likes Received:
    1,594
    Faith:
    Baptist
    About 900 evangelical missionaries (450 couples) nowadays, but I'm not sure of the number of Japanese pastors. There are about 100 IFB churches (missionary or pastor), and maybe 500 or so SBC churches.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    548
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For reference: The state of KY has 2,400 SBC Churches and a population of 4.5M

    Japan 126M
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    18,665
    Likes Received:
    1,594
    Faith:
    Baptist
    American Christians are spoiled. For example, there is only one reference Bible in Japanese--and it is put out by the JWs!
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
Loading...