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how can calvinism be "the Gospel?" isn't Tjat Jesus And the Cross/Resurrection?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, May 9, 2011.

  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    [T]here is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation ..... Guess who wrote that...clue...CHS
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, I suppose you would say that Charles Haddon wasn't preaching the gospel when he preached,

    Maybe this "gospel" of which you speak is not as "Calvinistic" as you would like it to be?
     
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Agree with what you have quoted "Brother Charles" in proclaimimg BUT...
    Why can't we preach Christ crucified, as atonement for man, and resurrected by God...

    Asking men to repent of their sins, and turn to Christ and be forgiven and born anew?

    Believe in election of God, by why not "save" the heavy duty stuff untile they are first in the Kingdom of Christ, than as getting discipled go into deeper things of faith, the "calvinist" framework of the scriptures?

    that is what happens in my baptist Church... Sundays message preached, God saves sinners, and they go than into deeper study in new faith in Christ life..

    We teach TULIP, just do not go along with whole package, as we are dispy/pre mill other versions people too!
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Then you haven't been paying attention. It's been asserted over and over that every man is already walking around with his sins forgiven, so there is only one act that he must perform to secure his salvation.

    A couple went so far as to say that faith is a carnal quality that some men inherently possess.

    Of course noncalvinists will assert that they don't believe they're establishing their own righteousness, and they're sincere, but they're in error. As long as a man has to do something to save himself, he is establishing his own righteousness.
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Aaron, in the previous post you said, "The noncalvinists are saying that the Cross merely created a situation in which one can save himself," as if God did his part at the Cross and then leaves us on our own to "save ourselves," by our own "works of righteousness," which I think you know is a complete misrepresentation of our views. God not only sent Christ to the Cross, but he raised him from the grave, sent HS inspired apostles, they in-turn wrote the inspired scriptures containing the powerful gospel appeal, which is carried and spread by the HS filled bride of Christ to "every creature." Now, if you consider that 'on our own' or 'saving ourselves' then you may have a deficiency in you ability to understand common language, because non-Calvinists affirm our need for divine assistance from beginning to end. To assert otherwise is to erect a straw-man for your own purposes.

    Our ability to breath our next breath is granted to us by God and anyone who thinks our ability to believe comes from anywhere but from God Himself is not worthy of consideration, nor are they orthodox baptist believers in any way shape or form. All we have is from above. That is not a belief unique to Calvinism regardless of what you may think.

    Again, we don't believe we are "doing something to save ourselves." We believe as scripture says, "Repent and believe and you will be saved [by God]." or "Humble yourself and you will be exalted [by God]." Nothing more, nothing less. If you have a problem with that gospel, then you need to take it up with the author of that gospel.
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    2 quotes from CHS

    I believe it is a mistake about God himself which has been the root and foundation of all the mistakes in theology. Our conviction is, that Arminian theology, to a great extent, makes God to be less than he is.

    The basis and groundwork of Arminian theology lies in attaching undue importance to man, and giving God rather the second place than the first.
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No it isn't. Here are your own words:
    In your own words, there is a burden of righteousness one must meet on his own to be saved.
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I know you don't believe this but I used to have the same conviction, but now having been on both sides of this debate I see it completely opposite now. It is not my conviction that Calvinism is doctrine that puts God into a box and "lessons" him in a sense. It's really all about the perspective, because when you believe that for God to maintain his sovereignty he must be in complete control over every intent, act and event (good or evil), then you have just limited God. You have limited him by presuming something about his supernatural nature and abilities (i.e. he MUST do this in order to be that). It's the presumption that God is bigger or more powerful if He is playing both sides of the chess board, rather than His actual defeat of a enemy He has chosen to give real dominion, real power, real authority and real choice. This is false and biblically unsupported premise, in my view.

    Arminian theology attaches no more importance upon man than God does. Man's significance is only as significant as God himself reveals, and according to His revelation, God so loved us that he GAVE his only begotten Son. It is in that and that alone we find any significance. There is not an Arminian or non-Cal theologian in this world worth his salt who would EVER put man above God in any respect. He is supreme and always maintains "first place" in all things, and if you think that is a belief unique to Calvinism you are sadly mistaken. Like Aaron, you are attacking straw-men.
     
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Oops. . . . . . . . . . . [Nevermind]
     
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    1. That was an analogy being used to discuss the application of the atonement, not a specific statement of doctrine regarding righteousness applied through faith, thus is being misapplied.

    2. Even so, the "righteousness" being represented by this particular illustration is one met through faith in Christ not through works of the law, which is distinction made by Paul, not me.

    3. Righteousness which comes through faith is accomplished through hearing the word of God, thus its not something done "on our own" or "by ourselves" as you accused.

    Thus, you are wrong on three counts, and probably a few more if I wished to take time to think of anymore.
     
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Trust

    I am not going to put my trust in something that I have to continue to make my calling or election sure, or others have been cut out and unable to enter for unbelief or that I am not to be aroggant if God didn't spare these natural branches He will not spare me either. That I have to continue in His kindness or likewise I will be cut out.

    I find a better hope in trust in Jesus which God does not consider working. That those who trust in Him will not be disappointed and those who come to Him, He will no wise cast out. I feel more secure in the arms of Jesus. Praise be to Him
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Too late to backpeddal Skandelon. There are your words. Christ on the cross has forgiven every single human individual his sins (except one), and God now requires one act of righteousness on our part to secure our own salvation.

    I haven't misrepresented anything, you just don't like my judgment of it.

    [edited: and you're kicking yourself for being so clear and concise in the description of your soteriology]
     
    #32 Aaron, May 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2011
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Do you see now?
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thats correct, it is your opinion....guess what Im thinking :laugh:
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I attack nothing....I merely quote Spurgeon. :)
     
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Backpeddaling would entail the need to take back something I've said, which I haven't done, nor do I feel the need to do. Only in your mind is the straw-man you are attacking Aaron. I gave three very clear reasons your argument was without merit and not one of them has been addressed.

    Even I see faith as the gift of God, birthed in the hearts of Christians by the work of the Holy Spirit through the Word, if its not resisted, rejected, ignored, or traded for a lie. Jesus himself said, "Humble YOURSELF." and "Believe in me." If you think humbling yourself and/or believing in Christ is equal to a "work of righteousness" according to the Law, then your problem is not with me, its with Christ. There are TWO types of righteousness spoken of in scripture Aaron.

    Read Romans 3 and Paul will explain the difference between the two. You are equating them as one thus leading you to doctrinal error. There is a righteousness which come through the law (works), which we all fall short of, but their is another righteousness which comes THROUGH FAITH. To equate "faith" with a "work of the law" is your mistake, not mine.

    Faith receives the gift of salvation rather than causes salvation, as even Luther himself taught.

    You said we believe that we "save ourselves," as if God does nothing to help us or provide what we need. Find me one non-Calvinist who wouldn't see that as a complete misrepresentation and then we'll talk.

    "Backpeddling" and now "kicking myself?" Really? Aaron, you translate my replies much like you translate my original posts and the scriptures themselves: through your own preconceived thoughts, ideas, and straw-men glasses, thus leading you to read what you want to read rather than what is actually there.
     
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Guess what I am thinking.
     
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Couple of points here to consider...

    please remember that Calvinist have 'differing" shades to the understanding of that system...

    High/Hyper Cals DO see God has being inabsolute control directly of all things, the determiner/direct cause.. So little need to witness/evangelise, as God will save his people, no need for them to even hear Gospel and exercise faith, will get saved regardless...

    those of my "camp' still do have God in absolute control, BUT do see that God causes some things directly, allows/permits other things. Either direct cause/allowed, God still though knows what will happen, and already has predetermined what will be the end result, factoring in what he has done and what has been permitted..

    Do Arminians than hold that man does have 'total free will?"
    Might say that man does, but a Cal would say that ONLY 2 men ever had "total free will" up to now...

    Adam and Jesus, as both were "without: sin natures as rest of us are after the fall....

    That is why Cals see God has to work in/thru us, as we are found in Adam, and spiritual deaf now...

    Also, cals tend to place the "importance" on God for the Cross of Christ... Arminians tend to see the price of Jesus death showing us how Worthy we are, how much value God places in us to send His Son to die for us...
    Cals tend to see that the Cross shows us more in how loving and great God is, that He is the sigificant one involved....

    Arms say that we are so much worth to God jesus sent to die for us...
    Cals say God gets glory by Jesus willing to die for us, in that in ourselves have NOTHING to appeal/make us worthy/worth it to God to save us....

    Interesting discussion!
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    From the opening months of his pastorate.
    Twenty years later, Spurgeon expands on the "nothing else" idea:

    "It is one thing to believe in the Doctrines of Grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure Truth of God."


    Wise words, indeed, considering recent BB events.
     
  20. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Aaron...

    Do I see WHAT now?
     
    #40 Alive in Christ, May 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2011
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