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Featured How Do the Moral Commands of the Law and Those in the NT Mesh for Christians?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Steven Yeadon, Jun 2, 2018.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 4:4. 'But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"' You can't decide that this or that part of the Bible is not for you.
    In his commentary on Hebrews, the Puritan John Owen lists 17 ways in which the old and new covenants differ. Chief among them is that in the O.C. the law was written on tablets of stone, whereas in the N.C. the same laws are written on the hearts of those in that covenant. '"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD. "I will put My law in their minds and write it upon their hearts"' (Jeremiah 31:33; c.f. 2 Corinthians 3:3).
    Not so. We have been here before, so I'm just repeating what I wrote then

    . I absolutely deny that the Decalogue is the Sinaitic covenant. All the 10 Commandments pre-date it as I showed two or three threads ago.

    We can certainly agree that the Ten Commandments occupy a higher position than the civil and ceremonial laws. I have agued that constantly. However, the Decalogue and the Sinaitic Covenant are not identical for several reasons:
    1. Jeremiah 34:13-14. "I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt.....saying, 'At the end of seven years let every man set free his Hebrew brother.......'
    Ezekiel 44:6-8. '......When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and ...in flesh to be in My sanctuary to defile it.......then you broke My covenant.....'
    Hebrews 9:1. 'Then indeed, the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.
    Hebrews 9:18-20. 'Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.........'
    These verses are Biblical commentaries on the Sinaitic Covenant , but clearly identify that covenant with other things than the Decalogue.
    2. Jeremiah 31:31ff says that the Ten Commandments will still function in the New Covenant.
    3. Exodus 34:27-28. 'Then the LORD said to Moses, "write these words, for according to the tenor of these words, I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.......' 'These words' cannot be the Ten Commandments, because God wrote those words Himself. 'These words' are Exodus 34:10-26 which God has just relayed to Moses. They are themselves a summary of what had previously been given to Moses in Exodus 20-31. '........So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights.......And He [the LORD] wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.' When the Lord Jesus said, "This is My body," I hope we both agree that He meant, "This represents or symbolizes My body." Likewise here. The Decalogue was placed in the ark of the covenant to symbolize the covenant that God had made with Israel.
    To be sure, the proper motive for keeping the Commandments is love-- love for the God who graciously gave them. But the idea that those commandments are not to be taught and expounded to all believers is a recipe for disaster. This talk of a' law of love' without law is desperately airy-fairy. The world is full of adulterers saying, "But we love each other so much! How can it be wrong?" Or, "I told a little white lie because I loved him/her so much," or, "I did a mercy killing, but it was out of love." God's law needs to be placed regularly in front of our congregations, which will, in the real world, inevitably contain unbelievers. 'All Scripture is .....profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.' Do we need to tell our people that paying bills late is a form of stealing? That keeping things you find is theft? Then we need to be teaching them the Law and God's commentary on it (Leviticus 19:13; Exodus 23:4).

    Since we have now reached the point where I'm having to repeat myself, I shall bow out of this thread. I shall at some point (DV) post something more detailed on Psalm 119 which is very germane to this discussion.
     
  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But God tells you this, and another that. He gave the Ten Commandments only to those he brought from Egypt. He did not give them to the gentile nations.
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    :Rolleyes Yes, the Ten Commandments were first given only to the Israelites, but, '.....out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of God from Jerusalem' (Isaiah 2:3).
     
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You are confusing the lesser law (Ten Commandments) with the greater Law, the two great commandments.

    Any wicked person can keep the Ten Commandments. Indeed Paul said:

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

    So what good is it if this is the Law you speak of? It cannot save. “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:21)

    “If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:” (James 2:8)
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of them are equally valid!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Well, at least he is representing NCT very well here!
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    On reflection, I don't think he's NCT. NCT people believe in those parts of the law that they think are repeated in the N.T.
    I think he's an old-fashioned antinomian in the style of William Gadsby or William Huntington.
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I am desperate to stop posting on this thread, but you've reminded me that I promised to say something about 1 Timothy 1.
    First of all, the Decalogue is never described in the Bible as the 'lesser law. You have made that up. Nor is the 'royal law' described as greater. What the Lord Jesus says is that 'there is no other commandment greater than these' (Mark 12:31). Indeed not. How could there be? The two are a summary of the ten.
    You must be joking! Christians can't keep the Ten Commandments! That is why we pray "Forgive us our trespasses.' The Pharisee in Luke 18 could not be justified by his law-keeping. That is why we need a saviour. Christianity 101.

    Right. First of all, Paul says that 'the law is good' (1 Timothy 1:8). Please try to remember that. But it appears that some people in Ephesus had 'turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things they affirm' (vs. 6-7). What were they saying? They were 'giving heed to fables and endless genealogies' (v.4). They were making up stories about the Patriarchs and other folk found in the genealogies of 1 Chronicles and elsewhere. Such stores are extant in Rabbinic literature, and they told how these people got right with God through their perfect law-keeping.

    So Paul says that the law is not made for a righteous man. (v.9). Quite right! 'If righteousness came by the law then Christ died for nothing' (Galatians 2:21). But where shall we find this righteous man for whom the law is not made? 'For we have previously charged both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin' (Romans 3:9).

    Then Paul gives a list of ten different sins. If you start with the fifth, it is quite clear that Paul is referencing the Decalogue, and giving the very worst example of each sin:
    5. 'Murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers' What grosser way to dishonour one's parents than to kill them?
    6. 'Manslayers.'
    7. 'Fornicators, for sodomites.' Perhaps intended to illustrate the worst forms of sexual immorality.
    8. 'Kidnappers' Worse than stealing a person's possessions is to steal the very person.
    9. 'Liars, for perjurers.'
    10. 'Any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.' This is a sort of catch-all category instead of covetousness.

    Now if you go back from No.5, you can see, though less obviously, that Paul has the first four commandments in mind:

    4. 'Unholy and profane' Those who profane the Sabbath and do not treat the Lord's day as holy to Him.
    3. 'Sinners.' Unclear, but it could certainly be those who take the Lord's name in vain.
    2. 'Ungodly' How better to describe idolators?
    1. 'Lawless and insubordinate' These certainly describe those who disregard God's law and put other things before Him.

    So who are these Ten Commandments for? Well, they are certainly for Paul. 'I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man..........This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am [present tense] chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life' (vs. 13, 15-16). Paul did not count himself as righteous, even as a saved man and an apostle. 'For the good I will to do I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practise' (Romans 7:19). The whole point of 1 Timothy 1 is to establish that there are no righteous people, and therefore the false teachers with there fables about supposedly righteous people back in time had 'turned aside to idle talk.' The law absolutely cannot save, but it is a guide for saved people to the good and perfect will of God.
    Never, ever, at any time whatsoever have I suggested that the law can save anyone. But nor can the 'Royal Law.' We are saved by grace through faith.
    Amen! But it still won't save you, because you won't be able to do it perfectly or constantly. You will still need to pray, "Forgive us our trespasses."

    Now I am definitely finished on this thread!
     
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  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the time and effort. If you read this, let me make my understanding clear.

    The Two Great Commandments are eternal based on Love for God and people.

    The carnal Jews were incapable of this so God forced them to act like believers under threat of death. He gave them the Ten Commandments for this purpose.

    When God introduced the New Covenant, only believers remained Having a heart of love, they kept walking in the light of the Two Great Commandments. And dropped the Ten Commandments meant for unbelievers.

    So, God removed the Ten Commandments (Old Covenant) along with all of the unbelievers from Israel (aka the Church).

    The Church uses 9 of the Ten Commandments (sabbath excluded) for commentary and instruction purposes throughout the NT.

    But the NT warns, that if you try to keep the Ten Commandments as the unbelievers did, you must return to all of the Old Covenant including the daily sacrifices and you will end up rejecting Christ as they did.
     
  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If you try to keep the Ten Commandments as originally given, you must reject Christ and return to the daily sacrifice and Sabbath. Along with not heating your house in winter on saturday. No driver license pictures. No pork chops or Red Lobster...etc..etc..
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He does seem though to hold with them as being against any Sabbath Day, Sunday/Saturday or otherwise, and does seem to have the same view on the law as NCT does!
     
    #111 Yeshua1, Jun 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The good news ius that we now under the NC are given the Holy Spirit to us when saved, and now have the power and means to actually abide and keep the moral commands of God, as we once were trying to do that in sinful and weak flesh, but now have the Holy Spirit of promise now within us!
    Our brother seems to think that we who uphold the Moral law of God for us are advocating salvation by law!
     
  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If you must keep the sabbath, it's like I said. No Red Lobster or pork chops. No heat in your house on saturday in the winter. No driver's license pictures. No shaving and and no Jesus.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are saved by grace alone, thru fasith alone, but we are still under the Moral Law to do right/wrong!
     
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    What I'm saying, is the most wicked can keep the Ten Commandments. They were designed for wicked people. If you need them to tell you not to steal or not murder, your heart is not right.

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

    But, the Two Great Commandments were always revealed through the New Birth to the faithful. Abel, Job, Abraham, and any listed in Hebrews 11 among the faithful. (Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit).

    So these already fulfilled the Ten Commandments (minus the Sabbath) before ever hearing them. And it is these Commandments that form the backbone of Christian ethics. We use the 10 Commandments for instruction, and as commentary.

    “Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” (Romans 13:10)

    “But if you fulfill the royal law as expressed in this scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.” (James 2:8)
     
  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If you walk in the Spirit, you will live in harmony with the Ten Commandments. But if you reluctantly do not steal or reluctantly obey any of the Ten Commandments, you still sin. Because even Al Capone could do this. Paul says that dying as a martyr means nothing if not done from a heart of love. So, if you walk in the Spirit in sync with the Two Great Commandments (Christian ethics) you will also live in harmony with the Ten Commandments.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NOT keeping the OT Sabbath, but the One under the NT!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are we those who are to live without any regard for the Moral law of God then?
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    None will ever be justified by keeping the law of God, so the Law was not meant to save any sinner, but to restrict their behavior, and to force them to come to Christ as the only way to now be saved.
    Once saved, then we can keep the law as the Moral compass to us.
     
  20. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The moral law is The Two Great Commandments. If you live according to this, you will slam dunk the Ten Commandments without trying.

    Think of it this way. Which Law did Jesus fulfill on the cross? Did he not covet the soldier's sandals? Or not covet Pilate's wife? Did he not kill those who were killing him?

    Or:

    Did jesus keep the Two Great Commandments and thereby fulfill the Ten also? He loved God with all his Body, down to the last drop of blood his heart could beat. He loved his neighbor enemy asking for their forgiveness as they wrenched the last breath from him. He loved God and enemy with all of his strength, mind and soul as he said "thy will be done" leading up to the crucifixion.

    Hopefully, this will reveal the difference in the Laws. When we do as Jesus did, walking in the Spirit, the Ten Commandments take care of themselves.
     
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