How do you fit these pieces of the puzzle together?

Hi Peter!

 

Hi.

I really don't see a contradiction here. To be the sacrifice for Sin and bear the punishment, Christ had to vicariously become responsible for Sin. God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, remember? God, by his nature, cannot abide sin; it cannot be in his holy presence. That is why a punishment for sin had to come about, and why when Messiah became responsible for Sin, God had to 'forsake' him.

Now, also, we must remember that God ordained the life, ministry, crucifixion and resurrection of Messiah. The purpose was to redeem all mankind. In that manner, I can absolutely see the Atonement as a 'fragrant aroma' to God, as the NASB states it.

At the risk of sounding like writing human emotions onto God, I can even imagine conflicting emotions here from God. Sort of a mixture of sorrow and ecstasy. I mean, this is his SON here, and that would draw sorrow from anyone. But at the same time, his son is bringing glory to him by redeeming his CREATION to him; I believe that would have caused a fit of ecstasy to the Father.

Anyway, that's just my two cents, and I hope it made sense.

--Landon

 

So you have the text (Matt 27:46 quotes Psalms 22) where even Christ admits that He is forsaken by His FAther - and then comment - "I can't find that in scripture".

That is amazing!

Here are some texts our RC bretheren do not find in scripture along with not finding Matt 27:46 and Mark 15:34

2Cor 5:
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

After not finding that one... they don't find

IF I had not found those texts - I might not believe what they say.


In Christ,

Bob

 

The Holy Trinity cannot be seperated! Truth is, the Father allowed (as did the Son Himself)this Sacrifice, choosing not to intervene (or in the Son's case, choosing not to call out for rescue)so that Atonement could be made. I don't see wrath here. I see love...

 

God is the one that determines the debt owed for sin - "The second Death" Rev 20 and 21 make that very clear.

God is the one that determines IF that debt is fully paid.

God is the one that had to be satisfied with the payment for sin made by the sin sacrifice - the atoning sacrifice for sin - of Christ.

If God had not approved of the payment - then payment would not have been made in full and we would still owe our debt of sin.

Notice that 1John 2:2 says "He MADE Him to be the Atoning Sacrifice For our SIN".

In Christ,

Bob

 

"To be the sacrifice for Sin and bear the punishment"

Just a reminder that Christ was not being "punished". He was making a sacrifice, which are two different things.

Bob, ironically I agree with everything you just said, which doesn't disagree with anything written in the catachism (takin in proper context )

 

Truth is, the Father allowed (as did the Son Himself)this Sacrifice, choosing not to intervene (or in the Son's case, choosing not to call out for rescue)so that Atonement could be made. I don't see wrath here. I see love...
__________________

The Father didn't "allow" anything ... He planned it and brought it to pass, as Peter reminds us ...
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

And not only did he plan it and bring it to pass, he took pleasure in it ...

Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

 

There is the wrath of God against sin.

There is Christ who "Becomes sin for us"

And there is God the Father who Loves God the Son through it all.

Though we can agree that "The Father was not Angry at the Son for dying for the sins of the World" (obviously) -- we can also accept the Bible truth that Christ "paid the price owed" -- Christ paid the "debt that sin incurs" the debt of Each sin for Each soul "and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world". 1John 2:2.

In Christ,

Bob

 

A few points here Adam.

#1. Why do you even care what the RC catechism says? This is a point to be established "sola scriptura" - I would think that your Baptist faith would be driving you to the Word of God - and the Word of God "alone".

#2. Though Carson has come out with some novel ideas about the millenium and about the debt of sin - I am not entirely sure that his views are fully reflected in the Catechism. The dissention I have seen on this board between his views and that of other catholics - "on some subjects" leads me not to blame the catechism for everything Carson says.

Though I do tend to suspect that Carson simply supports whatever spin that Franciscans take.

However - getting back "to you" Adam - what is the deal? Are you really Baptist?

In Christ,

Bob