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Featured How do you interpret "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. Twiceborn

    Twiceborn Member

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    Please reread my post. I said that we are "chosen in Christ" in time, just as Christ was slain in time. There is no difficulty in the parallel of the passages.
     
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    To be clear, the verse you cite speaks to God's foreknowledge of persons, not events. To the pretenders He professes, 'I never knew you.' Matthew 7:23
     
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  3. Twiceborn

    Twiceborn Member

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    There's more than one part to our adoption to Christ. Ephesians 1:5 doesn't limit it to one aspect though. It's speaking of our complete adoption, every aspect of it.

    Ephesians 1:5 is part of a single sentence that stretches from verse 3 to verse 6. The focus of the whole sentence is us in Christ.

    What we have in Christ:
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    How we are in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Explanation of what was said in verse 4:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Why we are in Christ:
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
     
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  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You're limiting "knowledge" to a sense of "saving knowledge". The Bible does not so limit the word.
     
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  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    To know, in the Bible, also means to have sex, but I'm certain that's not the meaning intended in Paul's letter to the Romans, and neither is the meaning you are wresting from it.
     
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  6. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    And how do you know this for certain?
    Satan was not cursed until after he successfully tempted Eve and they both then fell.

    Genesis 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Temptation and Fall of Man
    3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
     
  7. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 13:8

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him
    The inhabitants of the Roman empire, the idolatrous part of it, the men of the world, earthly minded men; who are as they came into the world, and are of the earth, earthly, and seek only after earthly honours, pleasures, and profits; these are the admirers and adorers of the beast:

    whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain
    from the foundation of the world;
    by which book is meant God's predestination of men to eternal life, or his decree of election; why this is called the "book of life", and their "names [being] written [therein] from the foundation of the world", ( Revelation 17:8 ) , for such a construction the words will bear, denotes that election is eternal, and is not an act of time, nor dependent upon anything done in time; and that it is of particular persons, and not of bodies of men, of nations and churches, and still less of propositions, or of persons so and so qualified, or under such conditions and circumstances; and that it is perfectly well known to God, and is sure and certain in its effects, and is unchangeable and irrevocable; for what is written in it, is written, and will always stand, not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign grace of God; and this is called the Lamb's book; that is, Christ, who is compared to a Lamb for its harmlessness, meekness, and patience, and was typified by the lambs in the legal sacrifices; and this book is called his, because he was present at the making of it, and was concerned in putting down the names in it, ( John 13:18 ), and he himself stands first in it as the elect of God, and the head of all the elect, who, as members, were chosen in him: the act of election was made in him, and stands sure in him; and he is the author and giver of that life, which men are chosen unto both here and hereafter: and he may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood, and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done; and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ; and in the faith of the saints, which brings distant things near, and considers them as if present; and also in his members, in Abel, and others, in whom he suffered, as he still does in his people; to which may be added, that such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them; for the remission of sins, that are past, and for the redemption of transgressions under the first testament; for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are. Something like this the Jews say of the Messiah upon ( Genesis 49:11 ) ,

    ``he washed, "from the day that the world was created"; who is he? this is the King Messiah.--It is written ( Genesis 1:2 ) ; "and the Spirit of God" This is the Spirit of the King Messiah; and from the day that the world was created; he washed his garments in wine;''

    which the Jewish writers understand of blood, which for its redness is like to wine; though they interpret it of the blood of the slain, with which the garments of the Messiah will be stained. Now such whose names are not written in this book of the Lamb, who have no interest in electing grace, nor in redemption by Christ, the slain Lamb of God, nor any right unto eternal life, who are reprobate persons, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, who are foreordained to condemnation, and are given up to believe a lie, that they might be damned, these are the followers and worshippers of antichrist.
    Revelation 13:8 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Bible
     
  8. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Not just people are elect. Angels are elect, and Christ is elect. That proves God's purpose and will is done by election, His choice is done as He is the Father-Creator, the prime mover. Christ said the Father sent Him, that this was the Father's will and on how to be saved is all done according the purpose and will of God.
    1 Peter 2:6
    Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
    1 Timothy 5:21
    I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

    John 5:30
    I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
    John 5:36
    But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
    John 5:37
    And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
    John 6:39
    This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    John 6:44
    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:57
    As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
    John 8:16
    And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
    John 8:18
    I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”
    John 8:29
    And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”
    John 8:42
    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
    John 12:49
    For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
     
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