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Featured How is it that Christ's death is "for our sins"?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Are you seriously asking me to prove a negative?

    I can prove that Scripture states God will not condemn the innocent (Proverbs 17). I can provide Scripture saying that Christ is innocent (1 Peter 2; 2 Corinthians 5; Luke 1; 1 John 3; Matthew 27). I can prove that God will never abandon the righteous (Deuteronomy 31; Joshua 1). I can prove Jesus is righteous (Acts 7).

    Now, can you provide even one verse that states God poured out His wrath upon Christ?

    You know what....I know you can't. Such a verse does not exist (it is theory, reasoned out from Scripture - not Scripture itself....hence the potential for error). @Martin Marprelate has been trying to prove the theory for well over a year now. All you can do is provide a verse and your interpretation (the only part stating God was wrathful towards Christ being your interpretation).
     
  2. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all will be resurrected, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

    Acts 24:15
    having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


    John 5:28
    “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
    29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


    Revelation 21:8
    “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


    Daniel 12:1
    Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
    2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.


    So Christ’s work resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

    I'm not advocating universal or ultimate restoration. I am saying that Jesus' perfect righteousness necessitates a repeal of the blanket or "corporate" judgement of Adam in lieu of individual judgments.

    This is the reason some experience a "second death." The ones who do not have Christ's righteousness to apply to themselves individually will be judged and die again... but it is basic implication -- if someone is to "die again" or have a "second death" they must first die and be resurrected.
     
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  3. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Wonderful reply.
     
  4. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Payment?

    If you can just find any passage that tells us we are "bought with a price", "redeemed", "purchased possession", etc, then Voila!
    There it is. ;)

    The very language is modeled after the barter system, IMO.
    Granted, I think that some preachers carry it a bit far, but "payment for sins" and "appeasing God's wrath" are both contained, in Scripture, as concepts.:)
     
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  5. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Wasn't this subject covered in another thread?;)
     
    #25 Dave Gilbert, Dec 29, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  6. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yes, I know that we were purchased with a price. And I understand that historically this has been viewed in various ways (I suppose for the longest amount of time the idea was God paid the price to Satan). Some believed this was a price paid to the principle of sin and death (whatever that was supposed to mean). Others believe it was a price God paid to Himself.

    I agree more with the idea that it was a payment in terms of the price for our redemption (e.g., it came at a great cost). I see "redemption" and "purchased" along the same lines. It was the cost of our salvation.

    I think it is a probably carrying it a bit far to see "payment" here (as in we were purchased with the precious blood of Christ) as indicating an appeasement of God's wrath. But I do think that propitiation in terms of escaping God's wrath to come is an inherent part of the concept of atonement.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Say it ain't so!!!! :Laugh
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    And that was never a Biblical view. I assume you knew that by your comments.
     
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  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    You know, I once fell for that, before it drove me into my Bible to find out if it was true.
    Someone who fancied themselves an authority must have told me somewhere.:Sneaky

    Lots of rumors start like that.;)
     
  10. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    I dug in a bit more...see if these don't clarify it.

    " For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s." ( 1 Corinthians 6:20 )
    " Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." ( 1 Corinthians 7:23 )
    "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." ( 2 Peter 2:1 )

    " And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" ( Revelation 5:9 )

    It's a bit deeper than being "redeemed" like a pop can.
    It cost the Lord God a lot more to send His Son to die for us and shed His blood, because He can never have Him back exactly the way He was....
    Now Jesus is both man and God, when before, He was only God.

    Now, if you're looking for exact phrasing, that might be similar to asking for a verse that uses the words, "Trinity", or "Rapture".
    They don't exist.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    That's interesting. I didn't realize it was still a held view (but I do see why people could think that way).

    For me, I held the view it was the payment Jesus suffered instead of me as God punished Him for my sins. I believed this for most of my life. Like you, the discrepancies drove me to Scripture and the realizationI was wrong.

    But what is amazing is that I am no less saved now than I was then. I am sure those who believe the Ransom Theory are the same. The gospel shines through these misunderstandings.
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    It is indeed. The price included God becoming man, being tempted as we are, bearing our sins, becoming a curse for us, and dying in agony in humble obedience to the Father.

    Do people still redeem cans?
     
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Of course they do...in Iowa, Maine, California, and some others.;)
     
  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Yes, I once believed that, as well.
    Again, before it drove me into the Bible to find the answer for myself.:)

    I don't find anywhere the concept that God punished the Lord Jesus for my sins.
    I do find the concept that He suffered for my sins, and that He died for my sins, and that God's wrath towards me was appeased...

    I say, If God punished the Lord Jesus for my sins, then He would have cast Jesus into Hell instead of me....which He didn't and won't.

    If the above quote can be substantiated, please show me, someone?

    *EDIT*
    Didn't we cover this subject in another thread, as well?;)
     
    #34 Dave Gilbert, Dec 29, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yes, I agree.

    I was reading in journal a few weeks ago about the Ransom theory. The author (I can't remember who) did a good job detailing the different forms the Ransom theory has taken - from a general ransom paid (no receiver) to Origen's theory.

    I find it difficult to understand the idea of a ransom pain to "sin and death". Perhaps it is just the language throwing me off.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    What??? Here on the Baptist Board??? :Laugh

    Do you think that we may perhaps limit the idea of Christ's atonement too much if we focus solely on His death (rather than the Cross as inclusive of Christ humbling Himself in obedience from the Incarnation to the Cross)?
     
  17. JohnDBaptiste

    JohnDBaptiste Member
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    1 Corinthians 15:1–4 (AV)
    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    The scriptures, when properly interpreted, are the be all and end all of statement in fact and argumentation.

    1. 2 Peter 1:20-21 the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible is the sole interpreter of the Bible
    2. We validate it is him (1 John 4:1) by the scriptures (Acts 17:11 / 2 Timothy 3:16-17) by which we are also to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:2).
    3. All else is "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20) forming the things of man (Matthew 16:23) which Jesus attributed to Satan (in that same verse and in John 8:44) and that these private interpretations / things of man (and the devil) establish the traditions of man which nullify the Word of God (Mark 7:13).

    By the Spirit tutelage of the holy scriptures we learn that God the Word created all things created (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16) acting by himself / alone (Isaiah 44:24) while in the presence of the Father (1 John 1:2) and of the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). And that is why he (God the Word) became flesh and tabernacled among us (John 1:14) to become the sin offering (2 Corinthians 5:21) that he thus paid for the sins of the entire human race (1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2) activated in each individual life by faith in Christ (John 3:16-18) which is also a gift from God and not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10) paying the sin debt no heir of the first Adam can pay... because of our very nature... the futility the Law of Moses teaches us (Galatians 3:24-25) that the Grace of Christ alone can save.

    A point of order...

    By one man sin entered the world and death through sin. The first Adam.

    By one man life eternal. The Second (Last) Adam.

    Is Jesus Christ of the seed of the first Adam?

    Or is he also a prototype as the first Adam was?

    If so, then Mary was more or less a surrogate. And Jesus is truly without sin as a man and as God incarnate. Being gestated in the womb of the heir of David through his son Nathan, Jesus would meet all the legal requirement to be the son of David... Abraham, Isaac, Jacob... and if true, I have no doubt than man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) has the totality of DNA that the first prototype had... which is the organic information of the make up of all of mankind.

    This would solve the confusion about Jesus being the ONLY Son of God while Luke 3:38 clearly states that the first Adam was the son of God...

    Luke 3:38 = Adam was the son of God... the WORD.

    John 1:14 = Jesus is the only Son of God... the FATHER (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5).

    One the cross the totality of the human DNA of the prototype died as a sacrifice willingly offered for the sins of the heirs of the fallen first Adam.... by the sole Creator of all creation (and humanity that fell). Our KINSMAN redeemer.

    This is also why demons / fallen angels cannot be saved by belief in Jesus. They are not his kin. We as humans are.
     
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  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I think all the views you listed are represented in the law of sacrifices. There were some sacrifices that were gifts and service to please God, some for the punishment of sin, some for the debt of sin (the trespass or "guilt" offering), some for cleansing. All of them are the work done in Christ's one sacrifice. And Christ is, at the same time, Tabernacle, Priest, Altar, and Offering.
     
    #38 Aaron, Dec 30, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  19. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    It's all wrapped up in one glorious work...to redeem some of us for an eternal relationship with Him and His Father ( John 17:3 ).:)
     
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  20. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Righteousness
    Since death came by sin, it stands to reason that life can only come by righteousness. That is where the two covenants come in. These two covenants are covenants for being justified as righteous.

    Galatians 3:21
    Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.


    But how does that righteousness become ours? It seems the scripture is saying that of the two ways to be declared righteous, only one of these ways can actually impart life.

    Galatians 2:21
    “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

    Romans 3:20
    because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 4:5
    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

    Matthew 5:20
    “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    So the mechanism for salvation is righteousness. But what is righteousness? I would define it as the state of being sinless, or the opposite of being a sinner. To be righteous is to be morally perfect or to be without sin as God is without sin. Jesus said in Matthew 5:20 that our righteousness had to surpass that of the most righteous religious people of that day, the scribes and Pharisees. In other words, those super-righteous religious leaders weren’t even good enough. Romans 3 says,

    Romans 3:21
    But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;


    Romans 3:10
    as it is written,
    “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;


    Here we see from Romans 3:10, 23 that all have sinned and fall short of the standard of righteousness necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. Paul even quotes scripture (Psalm 14:3, Psalm 53:3) and says that there is no one who is righteous, not even one. All are classified as sinners, and therefore no one deserves life. All justly deserve death, which is the punishment for sin (Romans 6:23– the wages of sin is death).

    So how do we obtain righteousness? Well the Scriptures seem to indicate that there are two ways to be righteous.

    Romans 10:5
    For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
    6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),
    7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
    8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,


    Redemption
    We see in Romans 3:24 the idea that we are justified as righteous through Christ’s redemption. To redeem means to purchase or exchange. But for that substitution to happen, that purchaser would need to have their own righteousness that they could exchange for the sin of the one being purchased. Christ was the only one who lived a perfect and sinless life. He was the only one ever qualified to give up His righteousness (His life) in exchange for our sin.

    2Corinthians 5:21
    He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Here we can see the Biblical notion that the redemption of Christ caused the sinner (Abraham for example – I’ll explain why shortly) to be made righteous, and caused the sinless Jesus Christ to become sin-filled. This verse demonstrates that great exchange. Perhaps it would be easier to say that our sin was imputed or credited to Christ, and Christ’s righteousness was imputed to Abraham (and subsequently to us). Many people have great difficulty with the notion that Christ, who was sinless and righteous, could actually become sin. But this is the nature of the exchange. At some literal point, God had to see Christ as sinful, and He has to see us as righteous. But remember, Christ volunteered for this exchange. Christ never sinned, yet he became sin so that we could become righteous.

    Psalms 16:10
    For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

    Philippians 2:5
    Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
    8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
    9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowedon Him the name which is above every name,


    Matthew 27:46
    About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

    Galatians 3:13
    Christ redeemedus from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—


    Deuteronomy 21:23
    his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.


    Hebrews 9:15
    For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemptionof the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promiseof the eternal inheritance.


    Isaiah 53:6
    All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.


    Galatians 4:4
    But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
    5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.


    Christ emptied Himself of His fullness to become a man. He also became obedient to death – remember death comes after sin and is the just punishment (wage) for sin. Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified on a cross (on a tree). Remember He said He could call 12 legions of angels to come and protect Him (Matthew 26:53), but He allowed Himself to be taken and killed. Through crucifixion on a tree (a cross), He became a curse for us (remember also the sky turned dark at His death). The sin laid upon Him caused God to look away from Him and forsake Him. I am not saying that Jesus sinned, but rather that He became sin and Abraham became righteous in this great, redemptive exchange. Some might object – “But that would mean that Jesus, cursed and sin-filled, couldn’t lift Himself out of hell. He would be stuck there!” Yes. That is true. That was quite the leap of faith on Jesus’ part, wasn’t it? Do you recall when Moses lifted up the bronze serpent that all who looked upon it were healed?

    Numbers 21:8
    Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”

    John 3:14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

    That was a type and shadow for Christ. Christ became sin (represented by the serpent) on that cross – our sin. Those who look upon this sacrifice will be healed. Healing is what Christ came do. Jesus was fully God, but he was also fully man. As fully man, when God laid the sin of the world upon him on that cross, he contained in his flesh the fullness of our sin. As such, he no longer had any righteousness in and of himself.
     
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