How Many Presidents were Genuine Christians

Here here!!!:applause: And folks need to stop being naive about this. If a man says he is a muslim or a mormon, he ain't saved.

There's no need to examine his heart for he tells you what's in his heart if he makes the declaration that he is adhering to that which does not follow Christ.

 

That assumes that you both listened to the Holy Spirit in making your lists.

 

???????????????

 

I hate to Rain on This Parade, BUT.....

....only God knows for sure ho many were Christians, as w as which ones were born-again; blood washed, and baptised into the kingdom!

Anything else is pure speculation on our behalf!

:type:

 

Perhaps that is because none of those verses refer to determining another person's eternal state. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to do that EXCEPT for ourselves- 2 Corinthians 13:5.

 

Those verses show us that we can. As to whether or not we should? I would suggest we most certainly are supposed to do just that. Let's look at Paul's instruction to Timothy concerning the qualifications of an overseer (elder):

1Ti 3:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
1Ti 3:5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
1Ti 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
1Ti 3:7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (NASB, emphasis mine)

There simply is no way to be obedient here without acknowledging the that we can, and should, determine if someone is saved or not. The dangers have having a non-believer in the position of spiritual authority in the local church should be obvious.

Consider also church discipline:
Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Mat 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


This demands that we determine if we are dealing with a believer (a brother) or not.


Let us consider the instruction given in 1 Cor 7
1Co 7:12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.
1Co 7:13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
1Co 7:15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. (NASB)


This also demands a determining of whether a person is saved or not. Time and again God gives us instruction through Paul, especially in 1 Corinthians, as to how we behave in certain relationships. While we are to love all men, how we llive that out and what is acceptable behavior in various situations demands that we determine the salvation of others. We simply cannot be obedient in these things unless we acknowledge this basuc step.

I understand that this is not popular. I understand the difficulty. I understand that we will not always be right. However, I cannot ignore the reality that it must be done if I want to even begin to hope to live obediently. Further, if we really think about it we all do this on a rather frequent basis. We must make the determination first to decide if the person in question needs to hear the Gospel. Also, we place expectaions, and rightly so, on the people around us. It is not right for us to expect a non-believer to act like a Christian is supposed to act.

 

Determining that someone "lives like a Christian ought to live" does not equal "determining their eternal state".

Certainly we should expect those who profess Christ to live like Christians, I'm sure everyone of the disciples thought Judas was a believer ("Lord, is it I?") That alone shows us how far off we can be.

 

I cannot expect anyone to live like a Christian unless they are one. That demands an assessment of their eternal state. Like I said, I don't know how we can avoid this if we have any hope of being the people God has called us to be. Even those standing against this already do it. Albeit probably without realizing it.

 

I'll just have to disagree agreeably with you on this. How many people would judge Lot as a righteous man, sans the information in the book of Jude? As good as we can guess and estimate based on the Scriptures that you gave, we just cannot KNOW for anyone other than ourselves.

When my wife and I got married I was sure as shooting that she was saved. But one night (seven years after we got married) she dropped a bombshell on me telling me she had just accepted the Lord- she was "examining herself" and her salvation experience and felt convicted that she had never truly repented and trusted Christ. I was slack-jawed, but I certainly rejoiced in her decision. I cannot tell you that her life after that moment was any different because she always did the "Christian things" before her conversion.

 

I am not, and never would, suggest we make the judgment based on a single statement unless it was a statement of clear denial of Christ. In all my examples from Scripture none of them are snap judgments. That does not mean the judgment is not to be made at all. Which is the error I am trying to address. I have seen no Scripture that speaks against this. If I missed something, please share it. I would hate to continue in error.

If my wife came to me and made that statement I would have to assure her that she was already saved. I would present the evidence of seeing God work in her and grow her through the years I have known her. I would explain that she was probably drifting a bit, and not taking her relationship with Christ as seriously as she should. I can rejoice with her that God convicts us, challenges us, and grows us all for He is faithful to complete the work He started in us. He is also faithful to discipline those He loves as His children.

 

I don't know about Abraham Lincoln's religious views in the latter part of his life, but know something about those views when he was a young man. He stayed in Louisville awhile with his friend Joseph Speed. He was so depressed, Mary Speed hid the sharp knives. When Abe departed, she gave him a Bible and told him reading it would help, should the dark cloud reappear. He told her that would be so, if only he could believe it.

Historical fact. But as for the other times in his life, I dunno.

 

What is a "genuine Christian"?