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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ntchristian, Jan 29, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    James is just telling us that if one has been really saved, they would evidence fruit to show that has happened!
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, after being saved! Believers water baptism....
     
  3. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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  4. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    The only time in Scripture the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

    ---> James 2:24
     
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The just shall not live by their faith is your argument then?
     
  7. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:1. Its a past act in that verse
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    yes, as having already been justified is in mind.
     
  9. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    I agree. Furthermore, Christ told the convicted criminal on the cross: Luk 23:43 KJV - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    If God wants you to spend eternity with Him, you will be there!

    Praise be to God!!
     
  10. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Like this?:

    "he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them [Paul and Silas] into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household."

    Yeshua1, who was baptized?
    Yeshua1, who had believed?
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Good thing the thief did not have to find a pool to get dunked into there! or show off a lot of his good works!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those who believed In Jesus and were saved!
     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    OK, now here is the same passage in the ESV; notice who the ESV states had believed:

    ESV:
    "he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them [Paul and Silas] up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God."

    Yeshua1, according to the ESV, who were baptized?
    Yeshua1, according to the ESV, who had believed?
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What does the greek text state here?
     
  15. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:1: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

    Please underline the word "alone" for me in the verse above, which you claim it contains. I must be missing it.
     
  16. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    James is not condemning faith alone. James is condemning those who claim to have faith, but there are no God ordained works evidenced in their lives, which is evidence that God has gifted someone with faith. Saying you have faith is meaningless and it is empty words.

    I believe you are butchering the meaning and purpose of James writing precisely because you are attempting to view it in isolation.

    A person can get in to great trouble when taking a verse in isolation. Here is an example from Luke.

    Looks like prosperity to all who worship God, doesn't it. However, context shows us how horribly wrong that interpretation would be.
     
  17. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what a contradiction is? The principle of noncontradiction states a thing cannot both be and not be at the same time.

    First, James is most certainly condemning faith alone. In order for him to not being condemning faith alone, you would need to argue that "NOT by faith alone" really means "By faith alone." That is going to be a hard argument to make, but I'm open to hear you try it.

    Secondly, do you know what the word alone means? It means: separate; apart; isolate from others; to the exclusion of all others or all else
    (Source

    If you believe James is not condemning faith alone, then you must believe that a dead faith - that is a faith alone, apart from ALL ELSE (the definition of "alone") - must be a salvific one. (cf. James 2:26)



    I believe otherwise. The entire New Testament never states faith alone justifies. Once again, the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it. (James 2:24)


    Agreed. If you think James is in isolation, you might want to re-read the Gospels. In fact, every single account of man's last judgement has one criteria which determines if he is saved or condemned. (Spoiler alert: It's not how much faith he has.)

    There is a reason St. Paul says of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity, the greatest is charity.
     
  18. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    It is implied there. If something else had been commanded or needed, Paul would have said so.

    In that verse, Paul says that our justification is by faith. We cannot add words to scripture. Doing so would cause great harm and goes against hermaneutic principles.
     
  19. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Implied? That's a stretch to say the least, especially since a few chapters later St. Paul would tell these same Romans...

    Romans 8:24 ---> "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

    Thus you don't see St. Paul or ANYONE else in Scripture teaching we are saved by faith alone. Once again, the only time in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it. (cf. James 2:24)
     
  20. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Not a stretch. Rom 5:1 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. It is there that the Apostle roots out justification in faith (alone). If it is faith plus anything then it is not of faith.

    Paul also makes this point regrading Abraham in the OT. Abraham believed God, and it was counted as righteousness. Again, Paul in Romans refutes that circumcision nor any other instrument played a part in hus salvation
     
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