1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How much influence does God have in salvation?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by canadyjd, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,443
    Likes Received:
    80
    Most of the folks I know that support the idea of "freewill" will acknowledge God does have some influence on the person being saved. I have a couple of questions I hope you will answer directly.

    1. If God desired it, could He assert enough influence on every person to bring them to salvation. This is a question of Gods ability to influence someone, not whether He will actually do it. Is God able to influence every person to come to salvation?

    2. Does God use the same amount of influence on every person, or does He use differing amounts of influence on different people?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    16
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ unto salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ, we must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,874
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Absolutely. God is God and He can do whatever He wills.

    2. Does God use the same amount of influence on every person, or does He use differing amounts of influence on different people?[/QUOTE]
    Every man has the same degree of availability and access to salvation.
    Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. (KJV)
    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)
    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

    It is my opinion, based upon the Word of God, that every man ever born on this planet, if he is a sincere seeker, will be given an opportunity to be saved. God is certainly able and is a "rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,226
    Likes Received:
    55
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God does influence men to come to Him. This is the purpose of preaching the gospel to every creature. He convicts us of our unbelief, and our other sins He convinces us of our need of Him and teaches us that His way is the right way.

    I believe He does but the reason some still do not come is not because of His efforts being weaker or stronger, but because of the persons will to reject Him. The Jew rejected Him. I know of people who experience the draw and have come close to being convinced of Him yet they resisted. all have different reasons. Mostly they are afraid they will have to give something up. Usually a sin they are in love with.

    A rich young man came to Jesus once and asked how he might have eternal life. Christ simply said to sell what he had and give it to the poor and come and follow Him. He could not do it because of His wealth. The love of money can be so strong that it controls the person. The love of the world can be that strong as well

    It's not a matter of what God can do because he can do anything He desires to do. His decision not to use such force on man is because He Loves man so much He wants men to choose Him as He has already chosen man.
    MB
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    27
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1. Why did God put us on this Earth?

    2. What did Jesus come to save us from?
     
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,443
    Likes Received:
    80
    Every man has the same degree of availability and access to salvation.
    Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. (KJV)
    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)
    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

    It is my opinion, based upon the Word of God, that every man ever born on this planet, if he is a sincere seeker, will be given an opportunity to be saved. God is certainly able and is a "rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).[/QUOTE]
    I appreciate you answering directly that God is able to save everyone should He choose.

    Your comment that every man on the planet gets the same opportunity to be saved seems unlikely since the gospel is necessary for salvation and billions of people have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel.

    What you have described is the general revelation that everyone receives but no one heeded. That general revelation is the same for everyone.

    Would you agree that those who hear the gospel have been given a greater opportunity to receive salvation from God than those who never hear the gospel?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,443
    Likes Received:
    80
    That really makes no sense to me. You are saying because God loves us so much He refuses to intervene in our lives to bring us to salvation, even though He is able to bring us to salvation, because He wants us to find our way on our own.

    I disagree. I believe scripture teaches us God loves us so much He chooses to intervene in our lives. He doesn't leave us trapped/enslaved to sin, but rather frees us from sin and enables us to respond in faith.

    Unless God intervenes, we remain trapped in sin.

    Thanks for responding
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    13,298
    Likes Received:
    1,116
    Faith:
    Baptist
    9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD. Jonah 2

    26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
    28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
    29 that no flesh should glory before God.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor 1
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    7,830
    Likes Received:
    872
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How much influence does God have in Salvation?...
    ALL OF IT!... Brother Glen:)
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,197
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, the human condition being, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -- Romans 3:11. And Jesus claimed, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." -- John 6:44-45.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,443
    Likes Received:
    80
    Pastor_Bob

    You said that "every man has the same degree of availability and access to salvation".

    How is that possible when billions of people have lived and died without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?

    Do people that hear the gospel have a greater degree of availability and access to salvation than people who have never heard the gospel?
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    44,090
    Likes Received:
    1,846
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The op lacks an understanding of scripture and the free will position. Scripture says all know God exists because of the creation that surrounds us. The gospel is sent where it has the power to convince everyone to be saved. So the influence according to scripture is three fold:

    1. Natural revelation i.e. the creation that surrounds us.
    2. Special revelation i.e. the gospel.
    3. The gospel is delivered by man sent by God.

    All of this is found in the first and tenth chapters of the book of Romans. If that was read and understood such questions that are found in the op would not be asked.
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
  13. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    75
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The only people that get saved are those that God foreknew and draws to himself because of his sovereign will. If he does not choose, they are not drawn, if they are not drawn, they do not believe.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    30
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is some of the best preaching, pastor Bob, MJ, and Danthemailman. So much better than any Calvinist answer.
     
  15. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,874
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, sir, you are misquoting me.

    I said, "It is my opinion, based upon the Word of God, that every man ever born on this planet, if he is a sincere seeker, will be given an opportunity to be saved."

    You said I said, "...every man on the planet gets the same opportunity to be saved..."

    It is obvious that those of us born in nations where the Word of God is freely preached and taught have a greater opportunity than those who are not.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,443
    Likes Received:
    80
    You said "the gospel"
    I stand corrected and apologize for misquoting you.

    Please define "sincere seeker".

    Can a person be a "sincere seeker" without a special revelation from God? Without Holy Spirit influence?

    Or to state it another way, can the general revelation of God in creation stir a person
    be a sincere seeker?

    If that is possible, once that person becomes a sincere seeker from general revelation will God make known the special revelation of Jesus Christ and His gospel to that person?
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,443
    Likes Received:
    80
    I'm always ready to learn. Perhaps you can help me understand the freewill position?

    You stated, "the gospel is sent where it has the power to convince everyone to be saved"

    Is that a limited area (since it appears billions of people lived and died without hearing the gospel)?
     
  18. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,874
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No harm - no foul.

    Those like Cornelius.
    Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    2 A devout man, and one that feared God
    [even in his lost condition] with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always [even as a lost man].
    3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
    4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
    [God is responding to a sincere seeker]
    5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
    6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
    (KJV) [God made sure that Cornelius heard the gospel]

    Consider also Lydia:
    Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (KJV)

    She worshipped God, the best way she knew how, as a lost woman. God rewarded her sincerity by opening her heart. She was saved when she "attended" to the gospel.

    No. All men are given a degree of light (John 1:9). There is the light of creation (Romans 1:20). The light of conscience (Romans 2:14-16). And, the light of Scripture (Romans 3:1-2).

    In my opinion, yes.

    Again, in my opinion, based upon the Word of God, absolutely. God will continue to give more light if a person responds to the light they have been given.
    Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. (KJV)
     
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,226
    Likes Received:
    55
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would say there are men who never hear the word of God. What you are over looking is the fact; Truth is scripture can say it better than I can. So here it is;
    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Just because a man never hears the word of God does not mean they do not know of God. Even the some Indian tribes in America worshiped the great creator of the Earth and Universe we live in. They worshiped this Great creator long before white men ever came here. You may say but it wasn't the God we worship. I believe it is the same. He is described by them as the Great Creator. Who else could it be?

    Creation just screams there is a Creator. Every where we look. True they didn't have the gospel.Yet the Bible says they are with out excuse.

    I disagree about opportunity, other wise they'd have an excuse
    MB
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,443
    Likes Received:
    80
    I appreciate your response and I find myself agreeing with most of what you have stated.

    I would point out that both Cornelious and Lydia had far more than general revelation. One received a vision from God and the other had her heart opened by God.

    I'm not convinced scripture teaches that a person can become a sincere seeker from general revelation. The examples you gave were both schooled in Jewish law (special revelation) prior to additional special revelation concerning the focus of Jewish prophecy, Jesus.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Loading...