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Featured How to answer this KJV Only?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by evangelist6589, Feb 4, 2017.

  1. GenevanBaptist

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    Politics and power, definitely not to fulfill a supposed Psalm 12 prophecy.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Amazing, still having spirited KJVO debates.

    HankD
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Heresy never really dies.....
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    True. Sometimes it morphs a little bit.

    HankD
     
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    The KJV was especially translated to be read aloud ("appointed to be read in churches"), which explains its mellifluent turn of phrase that sometimes did not accord with a strictly literal translation.
     
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  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Soteriology aside, I think you are mistaken on his ecclesiology. Yes, James was raised in the Kirk of Scotland — and learned to detest the Presbyterians (as he detested the Puritans he dealt with in England.)

    The Presbyterian ideal was the rule of society by the (Presbyterian) church. James, like his great uncle Henry and cousin Elizabeth, conceived himself as head of the church in England and the episcopacy as his instrument. "No bishop, no king," he said, so he was clearly on the side of the episcopacy as opposed to the Presbyterians and even managed to introduce the bishops into the Church of Scotland.
     
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  7. GenevanBaptist

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    Interesting. I had to look up 'mellifluent' - that's a new word for me!

    It does explain it's 'flow' though - never considered that phrase for what you say it means.

    I guess I always thought the phrase "appointed to be read in churches" meant it was 'ok'ed' to be used in the churches in contradistinction to other versions - but you put an interesting twist to my thinking - Thanks!
     
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Adam Nicolson, God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible, pp. 222-223, Harper Collins, 2005.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I share the opinion that the Geneva translation is superior to the KJV of any form.
    But I can't account for all the over-the-top praise for the beauty of the KJV. It's just plain clunky
    more often as not. Most of the time Tyndale's translation is much easier to understand with none
    of the ornate language. And the same can be said for the Geneva compared with the KJV.
     
  10. GenevanBaptist

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    I feel the same, except the 1526 Tyndale I feel is a bit messier than the KJV. The 1534 Tyndale, (in the 1537 Matthews), is more like the KJV with Geneva mixt in it. Like veggy soup. :)
     
  11. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I agree. I have not seen or read any evidence in histories of the period and in biographies about King James that would suggest that King James I held a Presbyterian view of church government after he became king in England. He likely had to accept Presbyterian views as a boy king in Scotland, but after he become king in England he seemed to accept and hold episcopal church government views.
     
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  12. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    There are a number of places where the KJV is better or more accurate than the Geneva Bible, and there are a number of places where the Geneva Bible is better or more accurate than the KJV.

    I am not sure which of the two is better or superior overall.
     
  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps it was not only the marginal notes that caused King James to dislike the Geneva Bible. If it was only the notes that bothered the king, why didn’t he have the text of the Geneva Bible printed without those notes?

    Many people may be unaware of the fact that the earlier English Bibles sometimes had the word "tyrant" or the word “tyranny” in the text. At Isaiah 13:11b, the 1599 Geneva Bible read: "I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease and will cast down the pride of tyrants." The Geneva Bible at Job 6:23 stated: "And deliver me from the enemies' hand, or ransom me out of the hand of tyrants?" Again at Isaiah 49:25, it noted: "the prey of the tyrant shall be delivered." At Job 27:13, the Geneva Bible read: "This is the portion of a wicked man with God, and the heritage of tyrants, which they shall receive of the Almighty." Its rendering at the beginning of Job 3:17 stated: "The wicked have there ceased from their tyranny." The Geneva Bible also has the word "tyrant" or "tyrants" in other verses such as Job 15:20 and Psalm 54:3. The 1535 Coverdale's Bible and the 1540 edition of the Great Bible also used these same renderings in several verses. The Bishops’ Bible has “tyrants“ at Job 6:23, Job 15:20, Job 27:13, and Psalm 54:3 and “tyrant” at Isaiah 13:11 and 16:4. At 1 Timothy 1:13, Tyndale's, Coverdale's, Matthew's, and Great Bibles all had the word "tyrant." At James 2:6, Whittingham’s, the Geneva, and Bishops’ Bibles had “oppress you by tyranny” while the Great Bible has “execute tyranny upon you.”

    John N. King asserted that King James I used Psalm 105:15 “as a proof text for the divine right of kings in his personal motto, ‘Touch not mine Anointed’” (Fischlin, Royal Subjects, p. 424). Alister McGrath noted: “One of the biblical texts seized upon by the supporters of the ‘divine right of kings’ was Psalm 105:15,“ which they argued meant “the people are forbidden to take any form of violent action against God’s anointed one--in other words, the king” (Christianity’s Dangerous Idea, p. 135). Allison Jack suggested that in the KJV “Psalm 105:15 could indeed stand as a justification of the divine right of kings, which the Geneva Bible had rejected” (Bible and Literature, p. 3). For its rendering “anointed” in the text in the 1560 edition, the Geneva Bible’s marginal note stated: “Those whom I have sanctified to be my people.” McGrath pointed out that “the Geneva Bible interpreted this verse in a rather different way: kings are forbidden to oppress or take any violent action against God’s anointed people” (Christianity’s, pp. 135-136). McGrath again affirmed that “the Genevan notes argued that the term ’anointed’ was to be understood to refer to God’s people as a whole” (In the Beginning, p. 147). McGrath asserted: “According to the Geneva Bible the text was actually, if anything, a criticism of kings, in that their right to harm the people of God was being absolutely denied” (p. 148).

    Concerning Genesis 10:8-9, Ovid Need wrote: “Both the text wording and the notes of the Geneva speak harshly against oppressors and tyrants, such as we have today. As I have used the Geneva and compared it with the KJV, I understand why King James wanted to rid Christians of the Geneva” (Biblical Examiner, January, 2007, p. 2). Ovid Need claimed: “An example is found in Matthew 2:6, KJV says a governor, where the Geneva says, the governor. The strong wording that demands that only one Sovereign, Jehovah God in the form of Jesus Christ was removed from the KJV” (Ibid.).

    It is interesting that those Bishops that heard King James complain about the marginal notes in the Geneva Bible did not mention the fact that the Bishops’ Bible had some similar marginal notes. The Bishops’ Bible had some marginal notes that condemned tyrants or tyranny. The marginal note at Exodus 1:15 in the 1595 edition of the Bishops’ was the following: “Tyrants try divers ways to oppress the Church.“ At Exodus 1:17, the Bishops’ note stated: “It was better to obey God than man.”

    Is it possible or even likely that King James I did not want believers to read how strongly God's Word condemns tyranny and tyrants? Did King James think that some might regard some of his actions as being those of a tyrant? Why did the KJV translators remove the words "tyrant,” “tyrants,” and “tyranny” from the text of the English Bible? According to the first rule given the translators, what “truth of the original” demanded this change? Is it possible that the KJV translators agreed with the view of civil government held by King James? Did the KJV translators avoid using the word "tyrant" to keep from offending King James or were they perhaps instructed to remove it? David Teems asserted that “James had seen to it that the word tyrant was absent from his Bible” (Majestie, p. 232). Melvyn Bragg claimed that the word ‘tyrant” was not “to be used” in the new Bible of King James (Book of Books, p. 42).
     
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  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Simply ask her for SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for her stated opinions. And point out some of the goofs & booboos in the KJV that have been discussed here before. (She will likely respond to the Scriptural support question with "Psalm 12:6-7", forgetting those verses existed before the KJV did & they don't name any Bible translation at all.)
     
  15. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    I would say "While I disagree with your belief in the exclusivity of the KJV, I appreciate your love for God's Word" and leave it at that.

    Conversations with KJVOs are rareful fruitful or edifying as evidenced by the nuts over on OnlineBaptist.
     
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  16. Baptist Brother

    Baptist Brother Active Member

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    I don't see a need for modern translations. If I were stuck on a deserted island with only an ESV, I suppose I'd use it. But, why use it if I have a KJV?
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Because it's better than the KJV!
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    "Better" is a subjective term. It may be "better" for you but may not be "better" for another Christian.

    I still preach from my old KJV most of the time (but I also teach/preach from the NKJV). Not because I am ignorant enough to believe it is the "only word of God for the English speaking people" but because I like it. I have been reading it for 65 years, and my present copy has 40 years of penciled notes in the margins. :)
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Objectively, the ESV is better than any form of the Jacobean Revision.
    Ah ha! You're a Bible corrector. ;-)
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That is a subjective opinion based on your choice of original language textform and your preference regarding translational philosophy.

    No, mostly just sermon or teaching notes. The bible doesn't need correcting. :)
     
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