How to salvage OSAS in view of Rom 11 and 2Tim2

The fact that it seems to apply the whole NT to others besides us is one of the reasons why I am unsure of this position. As I had told the Preterists before; I would think God would have inspired a true "NT" Canon afterward announcing the Kingdom had begun, and the new mission of the Church.

Still, it does seem to explain all the contradiction being debated here as to whether we are saved by grace through faith, or whether salvation is up to our own efforts, including "perseverance". Recall, as I mentioned, they were persevering unto something in their lifetimes. That is the context of those passages, and to extend it all the way up to us is quite literally, "stretching" it!
As to us receiving the blessings, but not the warnings, well that would be the whole point of being in the spiritual Kingdom. This is what they were persevering unto in the first place, and when it finally came, there is nothing to persevere unto anymore. Salvation is secure.(Rev12:10)

 

How many times do you expect JJump to explain his view on the same thing over and over, with you only to respond "is not!" and then ask him to explain it again. When he gets tired of it, you yell, "see! Is not!"

That's not debate. That's something else.

 

excuse me pretty pretty adorably please

what is OSAS?

 

J Jump,

bmerr here. I don't think Bob or anyone else is suggesting that salvation is earned, or merited by one's obedient works. Eph 2:9 is clear that salvation is not of works of which a man could boast, but that does not rule out obedience.

For example, in Rom 6:17-18, Paul tells the Christians in Rome that they had been made free from sin when they had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto them. Their obedience did not merit their freedom from sin, but it was the condition set by God for their freedom from sin.

See what I mean? Again, nobody is suggesting that salvation can be earned by works, but the Bible does teach that obedience is required to receive the blessing of salvation (Heb 5:8-9).

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Well, I think JJ has done an excellent job of describing the position we hold. I know we probably don't agree %100 on everything, but we both have the same basic understanding of grace and works. I will explain what I believe and how I think those verses fit in with the view of free grace salvation and OSAS. I apologize in advance that this will be a long post. If you prefer, I can refer a few books on the subject

Salvation, for starters, is an ambiguous term. It has to be qualified. Saved from what? Much of Christianity has long since abandoned the sound doctrine of eternal salvation as a free gift and then reward for works in the fear of God, and has begun to espouse this 'us and them' type of religion. Us is the saved folks and them is the lost folks. Us gets to go to heaven and wear white robes and crowns and walk the streets of gold and eat Tree of Life Fruit Pies for eternity and them gets to go to hell and be human charcoal for ever and ever. Us doesn't have to fear standing before the Lord of the universe who shed His own blood to redeem us from our sins, because we can do no wrong. If we could, why we would be them. So everytime we see 'salvation', thats us, and everytime we see something bad, thats them.

The only way to make this view make sense is to erase the lines between grace and works. But that line is clearly marked in scripture.

Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

We are saved not according to works, but according to grace. And we are called with a holy calling, not according to works but according to grace. So because God is so good and gracious, and not because of anything we ever did, we are saved and we are given a high calling. If we can lose the salvation because of anything we do, then it is not of grace, because it is of works. Likewise the calling, we are called by grace and if we have to do anything to be called, it is then of works and not of grace. But again, we need to qualify these things in order to understand them. Saved from what? Called to what?

Why does God save us by grace apart from works? Is it not so that He will receive all the glory for it? If God were to give us part of the responsibility for working for this salvation, would He not have to give us credit for doing our part? He even says so in His word.

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

No man will be able to say he had a hand in his salvation, it is purely the grace of God apart from any works. It is not reckoned as a reward, but as a gift. And no, believing is not a work according to God. God has done all the work that was required to secure this gift for us. If we attribute any part of that salvation by grace to ourselves, we are stealing glory from God.

Many people have latched on to this truth (it is true) that we are saved by grace alone if we believe on Christ. They reject the idea that our works will have any outcome on this salvation because then it would be of works and not of grace. I agree 100%. I believe that no matter what I do from now till the day I die, my eternal state is secured through the blood of Christ. I didn't do anything to merit it and I can't do anything to keep it, else it is of works. But what of all the verses that talk of works? What role does works play in the life of the believer?

We have already established that works have nothing to do with our 'salvation' (saved from what) and so we have to find a way to fit works into our 'us and them' theology. Us is saved, apart from works, BUT... and then we pick any of half a dozen ways to work for our salvation. If we don't work, we never really were saved. Or we are predestined to work. Or we don't believe in salvation by grace because we are legalists. Whatever, it all comes down to working for salvation and makes the Gospel of grace into a pyramid scheme (get saved for free in your spare time!).

Or we have to find a way to apply all the warnings to THEM instead of US. All the verses that say we have to work to be saved (saved from what) are written to the Jews in the tribulation or False believers. Even though the promises that we would claim as our own are right there in the same text, interwoven with the warnings, we must rightly divide the word. Promises are for US, warnings are for THEM. I'm saved by grace(saved from what) and there is nothing bad that can ever happen to me. And even then, many would say that someone who was committing THAT sin is probably not really saved.

Either of these two systems are going to end up at odds with scripture. The free grace is there, the warnings are there. You can ignore either to clutch your favorite system, or you can start to untangle the mess that we have been passed down from the fathers. There has to be a way to reconcile scriptures without corrupting the pure grace of God by interposing our own works into what God clearly says is a free gift of grace apart from works, and without diminishing the force of God's warnings for disobedience to His commandments.

So we have had to rethink some things that we have been taught. We have had to redefine some terms that have lost their true meaning, and we found that the picture in scripture is bit different than the picture that we were shown originally. It's not just 'us and them' in the bible. In fact, its almost all 'us.' All of the old testament are given to 'us' for examples. What is it that we have seen? We have seen that we are saved, and we have been called with a holy calling.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Saved from what? Saved from the eternal penalty of sin in the lake of fire. Jesus said whosoever believed would be saved, specifically He said at the last day.

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is what we were saved from when Jesus died.

Revelation 20:11-12
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

If you are 'them' and have not believed on Christ to save you from your sins, then you are going to be judged according to your works and recieve the punishment that God has ordained.

Revelation 20:15
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There will only be saved and unsaved people on this day, and it will be God's grace alone that keeps any of us from going into that lake of fire, for that is what we truly deserve no matter how good we think we are. Were it not for God's mercy, no man would would escape this fate.

Romans 3:20-24
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

But what about our calling? Called to what?

1 Thessalonians 2:12
12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

The kingdom is the prize, not the gift. The kingdom, that 'day' of rest that we are to labor to enter into, is the reward for faithful service to Him who saved you by His blood. We don't labor to be counted worthy to be freely justified by His grace! What kind of absurd logic is that? That is what we have been taught the bible says, but we have been taught wrong.

 

I said I would address your verses.

Romans 11:20-21
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

If being broken off means losing our eternal salvation, then we are right back to the beginning. Grace is not of works. If God is able to break off the natural branch and graft it back in, certainly he can break you off and graft you back in. But I don't think that eternal salvation is what Paul is talking about. Israel has been cut off from the kingdom of God.

Matthew 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 15:1-11
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

I said before that the full force of these warnings must not be lost if we are to be correct in our interpretation. I believe that Jesus is desiring that we will be disciples, that we will abide in Him and recieve the reward and experience the fullness of joy that He has prepared for them that love Him. But if we will not, we will not simply miss out on the reward, there is danger of punishment at the judgment seat of Christ.

Luke 12:46
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Wherever unbelievers go during the kingdom, that is where disobedient Christians will go, plain and simple.

2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Plain words, not much to say. If we suffer for His sake, we shall reign with Him. If we deny Him by our actions, our words, by holding on to this life and the cares of this world, He will deny us at the judgment seat.

It's so plain and so in-your-face that it amazes me today that I didn't see it, but then I still don't see a lot of things.

 

Can't you see that you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence?

 

Newman,

I know your belief for over 3 years at baptistboard. You believe in millennial exclusion just like as what Joey Faust and others teaching. Yet, all of them are securists like you. You do not believe in lose salvation when turn away from the Lord. You believe once saved, still always saved all the way to death then have eternal life.

But, you, Faust, others use Gal. 5:19-21 warning that anyone might be danger of missing the kingdom of God, if anyone(believers) do these things, shall not enter the kingdom of God. In Faust's intepreting of 'kingdom of God' is speak of millennial kingdom. Oh really? Does Apostle Paul actual saying it? Apostle Paul doesn't discuss about millennial, because of none mentioned of 'a thousand years' anywhere in his 13 espistles.

I did read a book - "The Rod". Many passages with warnings as what Faust shown in his book, I agree with him, that we ought take heed God's Word with warnings. All of these are conditional with warnings. Yet, he believes in security salvation. Huh?

Also, Faust saying, if we fail to overcometh shall hurt the second death of Rev. 2:11. He says, shall hurt the second death is a temporary. TEMPORARY???!!

Do John, the Beloved or Christ say 'the second death' is a temporary???

Most Christians among baptists understand 'the second death' is clearly speak of eternality punishment IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Very rare for me to hear a baptist pastor saying the second death is a temporary.

Faust's teaching is heresy.

There is too many errors in "The Rod".

There is so much overwhelmed in the Bible show of warnings with conditional, no doubt, these are part of salvation issue. These showing us that we could fail to enter eternal life, if we fail to overcome them.

None of thse passages saying that we will miss "millennial kingdom". Bible never call, 'kingdom of God/heaven' - millennial kingdom, because of none of these mentioned, 'a thousand years'. Use our common sense that 'kingdom of God/heaven' is from above which is eternality, not a temporary. John 3:3,5 is a perfect example that we must repent of our sins, or cannot have eternal life. It is speak of salvation, not millennial.

Sorry I am off the track. But I am trying to telling you, that you, Faust, and others showing many passages in the Bible with warnings, are obivously warning us about salvation, not millennial!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

James,

bmerr here. How so? Obedience is not merit, it is simply the evidence of faith. Naaman (2 Kings 5) did not earn the healing of his leprosy, but he was not healed until he obeyed. He obeyed because he believed God.

The Israelites did not earn the conquest of Jericho, not even the knocking down of the walls, but the walls did not fall until they obeyed God's command to march around the city so many times. They obeyed because they believed God.

The blind man that Jesus annointed with mud made from clay and spit did not earn his eyesight by washing in the pool of Siloam. Yet, his eyesight was not given until he washed in the pool of Siloam. He obeyed because he believed God.

I did not earn the remission of my sins when I was baptized for the remission of my sins. Yet, my sins were not remitted until I was baptized for their remission. I obeyed because I believed God.

Obedience is not something of which a man can boast. Notice the contrast between the Pharisee in Luke 18:10-12, and the servant in Luke 17:10. That ol' Pharisee was right proud of his humility, huh?

But the servant who had done all those things which were commanded were still to say of themselves, "We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." No boasting there.

One of the things men under the New Testament are commanded to do is to be baptized for the remission of their sins. This follows the commands to believe, repent, and confess Christ. To obey is still to have nothing of which to boast. That's why James could say that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" James 2:24). He is speaking of obedience, not merit.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

I think the very next verse shows you can be cut off:

Romans 11
22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

If you apply "cut off" to spiritual salvation, then it's easy to see why you are confused.

If you believe that your spiritual salvation can be lost, and you can still burn in the lake of fire forever, then you belive that the Bible contains lies.

What must I do to be saved?