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Featured How to Sound Like a Bibliology Scholar

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Sep 6, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When one uses the Strongs as their essential Greek study tool, that right there would make their Greek proficiency get questioned!
     
    #101 Yeshua1, Sep 16, 2017
  2. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I have never claimed to be a Greek & Hebrew expert. NEVER.
    I have used Strong's numbering courtesy of the blueletterbible.org & acknowledge my source. I have been criticised for using what you refer to as an out of date reference. As the BLB with Strong gives access to both the TR & the MGNT & many modern translations, permits word search in Greek (& Hebrew) & many other 'tools' arguments against it have to be specific, not general.
     
    #102 Covenanter, Sep 16, 2017
  3. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Of course not, but years of study does give a familiarity with Scripture & a competence to discuss questions arising.
     
    #103 Covenanter, Sep 16, 2017
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  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And can formal education in Hebrew and Greek enhance that familiarity and competence?
     
    #104 TCassidy, Sep 16, 2017
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I would think that a pastor, or even a layperson, would desire if at all possible to gain some knowledge of biblical Greek/Hebrew.
     
    #105 Yeshua1, Sep 16, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Be glad to. Strong's is a Concordance, not a Lexicon. As a Concordance it functions fairly well. As a Lexicon it fails miserably due to several specific reasons. The first is the root fallacy. The second is the outdated lexical definitions (often relying on how the KJV translates the word as the primary meaning). Strong's confuses etymology with philology, often ignoring Koine cognates (which we have seen over and over again right here on the Baptist Board).

    Strong's Concordance gives a gloss for each lemma, but such is not the main purpose of Strong's and as such it should not be used as a lexicon.

    For instance, if I said, "I am looking for a match." What would I mean? I want to light a candle? I want to find a life's romantic partner? The meaning is ambiguous because no grammatical factors are included (in what case is it, what number, what gender, if a verb what tense, voice, mood?). Strong's offers no help in this area.

    Strong's offers no help when determining which gloss is most appropriate in context. Knowledge of the original languages is required to determine what grammatical and contextual features are present in order to determine the correct gloss.

    As examples of etymological fallacies think of these words, "awful." It used to mean "full of awe." Now it means "terrible." A "butterfly" contains no butter and is not a fly. Here is an interesting one: "December." If you commit the root fallacy and understand the word in its Latin context you would note "Dec" means "10" so "December" must be the 10th month of the year. Except it's not!

    I will even go out on a limb here and say that many of the Lexical works which have been published using Strong's numbers are almost as bad. Many of my friends cite Smith or Thayer, both of which have been coded to Strong's numbers. But both of those Lexicons are over 120 years old and are terribly out-dated and are, in my opinion, obsolete.

    There is no short cut to Hebrew and Greek exegesis. If you want to "go to the Greek" you will have to take the time to learn it. There is no other way.

    I have been studying biblical languages for over 40 years (studying under some of the very best Hebrew and Greek scholars) and still consider myself a neophyte. There are men who are much better at it then I am, and I will often seek their counsel, and defer to their superior understanding. But learning is a life-long process. It is never too late to learn something new.
     
    #106 TCassidy, Sep 16, 2017
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  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No? Okay, you just thought you were right and genuine experts were wrong. Does that sound more like it? Then you questioned my integrity, intimating to the mods that I was a liar about who I am and what I do. Never apologized for that, did you?
    Here's the thing. Unless you know what you are looking for, your word searches are next to useless. Semantics (the study of meaning) is much more than simply doing a word search.

    The unfortunate thing about all of the Bible software and websites out there is that they make sounding like a genuine expert in Bibliology sound easy without the hard work needed to become one. So you can be completely mistaken while using jargon such as "original Greek," "root word," and so forth.
     
    #107 John of Japan, Sep 18, 2017
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  8. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    As I haven't got access to what I said about your posts I reported, I can't directly answer that. I certainly would not have intimated to the mods that you were lying about your qualifications,etc. If I had I think they would have barred me from the forum.

    I have got their reply to me which was not a rebuke but stated you are a subject expert. I can't quote here as it was a PM.
     
    #108 Covenanter, Sep 18, 2017
  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    That is my primary use of Strong - as a concordance to see the usage of Greek words in their context in English translation.
     
    #109 Covenanter, Sep 20, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    But you also many times give the Greek word and definition directly from Strongs also.
     
    #110 Yeshua1, Sep 20, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The basic problem with all of the really good biblical software and sites now available to use is that it makes one think that they are really getting into and understanding the Greek, but they are really getting many times information, but not having the means to really understand and use what that means in a proper fashion.a
     
    #111 Yeshua1, Sep 20, 2017
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, it was a PM, but then you directly quoted the PM in the open in that BB thread. In that quoted PM, the moderator revealed my name and place of employment to you, and you then revealed that in the open on the Internet contrary to BB rules. I don't know if its still there. Frankly, I'm not afraid of anyone coming after me, and I don't much hide my identity. But you were unethical and insulting in the PM you posted in the open.
     
    #112 John of Japan, Sep 20, 2017
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm going to list one last pet peeve about people wanting to be Bibliology experts. I get really tired of all the comparisons between English versions. Such comparisons really have little meaning to me. When Pidgeon compares his "Eth-Cepher Bible" to standard translations, my thought is, "So what?"

    What is important is comparing a Bible version to the original Hebrew and Greek. Now, a genuine expert in Bibliology must have expertise (not just Strong's access) in the original languages.

    This does mean that an expert must have grad degrees. It is very rare, but possible, for a person to attain a deep knowledge of the original languages on his or her own. William Pierpont, one of the editors of the Robinson/Pierpont Byzantine Textform Greek NT is an example of that. Also, I have a friend who is a missionary translator and statesman who, though his studied Hebrew in Israel, mostly got his Greek knowledge (which is extensive) through self study.

    But frankly, I've seen no one on the Internet (esp. here on the BB) to match this kind of Bibliologist. Folks: be humble in your lack of knowledge, just as the two men I just mentioned were and are humble in their expertise.
     
    #113 John of Japan, Sep 22, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    My opinion on this would be that far better to have someone who is into prayer, practice what they learned, and using a good english translation, than have someone who is rely upon their "greek and hebrew" expertise, when they really have none!
     
    #114 Yeshua1, Sep 22, 2017
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