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Featured How we obtain our faith?, we receive our faith by divine allotment

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Feb 21, 2021.

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  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    adfin

    It doesnt say it wasnt, however it was, The allotment is from Him, do you deny that ?

    No its not, the verse teaches that truth

    I think you wrong !
     
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    By God. When God gives a sinner the Spirit in New Birth faith accompanies it. 2 Thess 2:13

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    The word belief here is actually the noun pistis which is translated faith in scripture 239 times.
     
  3. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    This verse doesn't say faith is given by God, which is what is being claimed.
     
  4. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    If it was either, I think there is a Greek voice for that. But that voice is not in this verse. The voice is active, giving the honest and diligent translator no choice. One is not allowed to have it both ways in this verse. The Greek doesn't allow it. If God says it in this particular way, woe unto him who contradicts Him. Greek isn't English (which is riddled with inherent ambiguities). Greek lends itself to a precision that is difficult to replicate in English. It is dangerous for people to take advantage of English to twist God's words.
     
  5. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    In other words, "Did God really say...................that they obtained? Everyone knows that everyone passively receives (not obtains by their own decision). So what it really says is <insert something not in the text>".

    Whoever feels free to make that imposition, on his own head be it. As for me, no thank you.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    You cant see it, thats too bad !
     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    It says enough.
     
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  8. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    One can be content when he is not hallucinating.
     
  9. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    It says nothing in support of the claim. Due to this fact, some people resort to exchanging a sound English translation for an unsound one, so that a verse "says enough" that is to their liking. That kind of exchange is a species of what is happening in Romans 1:23 (look up the word used for "change/exchange").

    Recommendation: Don't do it.
     
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    Im not the Spirit, I cant make you see or receive the Truth.
     
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    Again, it says enough. It takes God to cause people to see scripture proofs.
     
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  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Look what I found when I went to this:

    https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2pe1.pdf

    "λαγχάνω", transliterated as " lagchanō" into English, means " obtain", "determine by lot" and "chancing on" / "ones-chancing upon"...
    Which I thought was very interesting, my friend.

    Again, this passage only reinforces what I already understood,
    but I value every tidbit that the Lord shows me through His word.


    Thanks for posting this thread;
    I found it very helpful.:)
     
  13. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    This point is interesting. There is this idea that scripture verses are proofs of things.
    Well, now there's a thing. Did anyone notice that your post is exactly the same justification given in the OP, right down to the quotation of a lexicon?

    Was it not to the OP that my first post in this thread was responding? How does one think that merely repeating the OP answers the critique of the OP?
     
  14. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Some more to think on as Peter also says,
    1 Peter 2:3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

    About your lot in life, its every decision is from God.
    Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.
    Also recall the dream interpreted by Joseph which came from God to the Egyptian baker and cup holder. God had determined each mans fate.

    About the mystery of His will for us
    Ephesians 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

    Who of us could know the Lord would choose us while passing by someone else, none of us are His councilors. Stuff happens and none of it is due to chaos
     
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  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Or sources of truth.

    Granted, this is a "debate" section...
    But sometimes people don't use it to debate.

    Sometimes they use it to hash out teachings that they see in the Scriptures and bounce them off people who see the same things.
    Some call it "iron sharpening iron".

    Again, if you disagree with the words on the page and are not in agreement with the OP, then that is your prerogative.
    I, for one, see nothing wrong with what he has stated in his original post as I am in full agreement it.


    May God bless you with many good gifts this day, sir.
     
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Well-said, my friend.

    And how did He say that their faith would be increased?
    To me, He really didn't directly answer that in the passage that comes to mind:
    Luke 17:5-6.

    Rather, He tells them later on in the epistles through His apostle Paul, that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ), not "of" themselves but is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) that not all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ). It is also "of" Christ ( Galatians 2:16-20 ) and that Paul said that he lived by it.

    How does it grow?
    This requires more study from me, as I've yet to fully answer this Scripturally.
    Could it be that Matthew 13:31-32 has more to say on it?
    I'm not entirely sure at this point.

    But some say that it grows through use and seeing our requests to God become reality.
    When we ask for deliverance, He follows through and does as He promised.
    I've experienced this in my daily life through many trials.

    In the end, we have it because the Lord Jesus authored and finished it for us ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and it is the evidence of God's supernatural work in us as believers in Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 11:1 ).:)
     
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  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    Amen, so if I understand correctly, a "chancing on " is similar to casting lots, and even then, its of the Lord Prov 16:33

    The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.

    So the Lord determines how the lot falls, as He determines who He allots faith.
     
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Ad Finitum, nice effort to point out Calvinism's "gift of faith" is read into the text rather than derived from the text.

    However, I think the thread discussion should include just what the verse (2 Peter 1:1) says. Does the word "faith" refer to the information that the believer accepts and believes to be true, or is the idea that the ability to believe is passively received, or perhaps a third possibility? Certainly the information provided by God (the gospel of Christ) has been provided by grace, I certainly did not earn a ticket out of the realm of darkness.

    But is the idea simply that God dropped the apple of gospel information into our lap, or is the idea that the equally precious trusted in that gracious gift of information.
     
  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    I won't play the endless Greek game. I've never seen going back to the "original languages" ever settle anything when it couldn't be settled in the English. Who knows, I may live to see the day, but so far I haven't seen it. So please forgive me if I study obtained in my Bible, and yes I know that different Greek verbs are used, and again, there is not one case of Greek verbs being consistently used in a perfectly categorical manner (ex: the whole phileo-agapao distinction is a joke for anyone who studied it).

    So the text alone:

    I don't know if obtained is exclusively active or exclusively passive.
    Comparing scriptures with scriptures, sometimes it's passive:
    Acts 27:13 And when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence, they sailed close by Crete.
    And sometimes it's active:
    Acts 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

    From the text alone:

    I don't know whether faith is a reference to saving faith exclusively or to New Testament revelation exclusively.

    From other scriptures I know that:

    In parallel to 2Peter 1:1 Paul speaks of the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith (Ro.1:17), there clearly referencing Old Testament faith (revelation) VS New Testament faith (revelation).

    In parallel to 2Peter 1:1, Paul blesses the already-saved-through-faith Ephesians by wishing them faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph.6:23).

    I have no problem applying the obtaining of faith to both saving faith and to the larger body of revelation whereinto believers are to grow in faith.
    It was God indeed that revealed Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God to Peter himself, the author of 2Peter 1:1.
    It was God indeed that opened Lydia's heart that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    Both these could testify that they obtained their saving faith from God.

    But how did they obtain that faith from God?
    By a supposedly mysterious and apparently random pre-creation decree of God to irresistibly overcome their sinful will by making them believe?
    Or was it not rather through the on-their-own-sufficient-means ordained of God: the preaching of the gospel and the conviction of the Holy Spirit?
    Lydia and Peter were already people seeking God (and for every Romans 3:11 I'll show you 3 verses where men are said to seek God) and who were honest with the light that God had already shown them when he opened up their heart to hear further revelation concerning his Son.
    The Holy Ghost sets up the gospel, and the Holy Ghost moves a man to believe it, and when that man believes it of his own free will, he is the one that believed, but he also obtained that faith since it was the Spirit that gave him something to believe and moved him to believe it.

    Every heresy builds on a grain of truth.
     
  20. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    NASB
    For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
    NIV
    For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

    Some have more faith, some have less faith, but the scripture really does say God has given to every man a certain amount of faith, meaning a man did not give to himself faith.
    It is not that man has faith first and then God changes the amount a man has, like take away some faith.
    We are not all the same like a machine made part. Go has setup the body to work together, each part supplying what otherwise might be lacking, but God is the designer of the church.


    μερίζω merízō, mer-id'-zo; from G3313; to part, i.e. (literally) to apportion, bestow, share, or (figuratively) to disunite, differ:—deal, be difference between, distribute, divide, give participle

    God has bestowed to man the measure of their faith. If you try to separate faith from God nowhere is that scripturally supportable.
    And all the verses also tell us it is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God lest a man have something to boast about back to God.

    Psalm 89:30-34
    New King James Version
    30 “If his sons forsake My law
    And do not walk in My judgments,
    31 If they break My statutes
    And do not keep My commandments,

    32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod,
    And their iniquity with stripes.
    33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him,
    Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
    34 My covenant I will not break,
    Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.
    35 Once I have sworn by My holiness;
    I will not lie to David:
    36 His seed shall endure forever,
    And his throne as the sun before Me;
    37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
    Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah

    If God says He will not allow His faithfulness to fail to a man that He has a covenant with, then God is going to ensure the man has faith as without faith it is impossible to please Him.
    So God makes sure according to His covenant He has established with a man that a man will continue to be faithful, as God only saves believers and without faith it is impossible to please God.

    This having faithfulness to God is taught in Galatians 5 as a fruit of the holy Spirit, none of these Spirit filled people failed, as God made sure they did not, so this faithfulness was not of themselves.

    I bet a lot of people who say faith is not a covenant gift from God, also say a man can lose their salvation.

    Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
     
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