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Featured How were we "in him" (Christ) before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Oct 3, 2019.

  1. George Antonios

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    Please answer the question with verses that speak about being "in him" or "in Christ", since we all agree that only scriptures interpret scriptures.
    Thank you.
     
  2. Particular

    Particular Active Member

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    Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

    Scripture interprets scripture. In both places we see the predestination of God so that the elect are viewed in Christ (in God the Son) before time began.

    These passages inform us of the Supremacy of God regarding his foreknowledge.
     
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  3. mailmandan

    mailmandan Member

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    Were we actually "in Him" before the foundation of the world (before we even existed) or "chosen" in Him before the foundation of the world? (Ephesians 1:4) Verse 5 goes on to say - "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself.."
     
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  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Ephesians 1:4

    Election was determined to be in Him from the foundation of the world.
     
  5. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    George,

    I believe that I've presented everything I possibly can in your other threads, in order to help you to understand why I believe as I do.
    That said, what I'm finding is, that even in the underlined, that agreement can mean different things to different people.
    Even among those of us that are "Baptists"...

    1) For example, some people condition all the passages on election and choosing, in the light of all the passages that seem to show man having to respond to God, and some do the opposite.
    "Foreknowledge" means one thing to one group, while it means another, to another ( "Traditionalists" / "General Baptists" versus "Calvinistic" / "Particular Baptists" ).

    2) Some even condition all the passages on "Eternal Security" in favor of the "warning passages" in many of the epistles...resulting in a firm belief of loss of salvation ( "Free Will Baptists" ).

    None of us, even on this forum, is likely to agree on any two things that may come up in the Bible.:(
    Per the above, it appears that you've already decided.
    Because of this, the only reason I see you creating these threads is in opposition to God's choice being the only choice that matters.

    So, any Scriptures that I show you, will simply be taken in the light ( or "dark" ) of what you've already come to reject.
    What I've found, especially since joining this forum, is that there are many here to whom the same exact Scriptures that I would quote in defense of God's prerogative to save whom He will, mean different things in the light of others.

    Ultimately,
    I've done what I believe that the Lord wants me to do under 2 Timothy 2:22-26 ( even if I have not obeyed it perfectly ), and I now leave it all in His hands.;)



    I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you both in your personal life, and in the lives of your family.:)
     
    #5 Dave Gilbert, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  6. George Antonios

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    It's not the only choice that matters, because God himself told me in his word that my choice [faith, not works] does also, and I praise him for it.
    People who read the above with a sense of indignant horror do so out of an affected humility of which they boast. Calvinists are more royal than the king. That's the issue.
    I wish you well too.
     
    #6 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
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  7. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    These verses are adequate to satisfy your curiosity.
    [Isa 55:8-9 KJV] 8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
     
  8. George Antonios

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    Only 4-5 replies on a foundational verse...
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A related side note.
    Both passages are about the same thing.
    ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23.
    ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. . . ." --1 John 3:2.
     
  10. Particular

    Particular Active Member

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    What are you actually saying here? You have chopped up what I posted and then chopped up 1 John 3.
    I am a person who appreciates context. Minimalism and chopping things down to a sentence or phrase is a really poor method, in my opinion. I have no idea what point you are attempting to make.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You know the context. I cited what was said to be predestinated in Romans 8:29 and in Ephesians 1:5. 1 John 3:2 is a reference to Romans 8:29. And Romans 8:23 is a reference to Ephesians 1:5. The use of ". . ." means there is a larger context BTW.
     
  12. Particular

    Particular Active Member

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    Again...what are you talking about? I have no idea where you are going with this or what you are actually attempting to say.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What was predestinated in Ephesians 1:5?
    What was predestinated in Romans 8:29?
    And what has that to do with being ". . . in Him . . ." in Ephesians 1:4?
     
  14. Particular

    Particular Active Member

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    The English terms, predestine and predestination come from the greek word, proorizo, a compound word that means "to determine beforehand."
    Essentially, predestination refers to setting the destiny, goal, or end of something before it happens.

    Specifically, the "us" Paul is referring to in his letter is himself and the readers of his letter in Ephesus.
    The question is: Are all persons who are reconciled with God adopted and predestined? I say, yes.

    Ephesians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

    What was predestined?
    Those whom God foreknew.

    Romans 8:26-31 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

    Being...
    God made us alive together with Christ. Our life is because Christ exchanged our sin for His righteousness.

    Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 2:17-21 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

    It is all God. God accomplished what I could not do.
     
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  15. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    1) What was predestinated in Ephesians 1:5?
    " having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

    The believers at Ephesus...

    " Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" ( Ephesians 1:1 ).
    ..but there's more:

    To the faithful in Christ Jesus.

    That's a rather larger audience than just Paul and the saints at Ephesus...it also includes all believers.

    2) What was predestinated in Romans 8:29?
    " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
    Those He foreknew, He also predestinated...conformed to the image of His Son.


    3) What does that have to do with being "in Him"?
    " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

    Believers were chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world.


    Anyone that is "in Christ" is a new creation ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ).
    They are "in Christ" ( in real time ) when they believe ( Romans 16:7 ), and were never at risk of being anything other than "in Christ" ( from the foundation of the world ), because God's choice to place them there cannot be resisted.
    They will come when "called".

    Salvation is a sure thing for God's elect, the "whosoever believeth" ( John 3:16 ).
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    None of your answer answered what was asked.

    Hint, the "adoption," future, is in what we being in Christ causes us to to conform to His "image." Romans 8:23; 1 John 3:2. That is the "what" the saved in Christ are said to be predestinated.
     
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  17. Particular

    Particular Active Member

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    You should rephrase it and say, "None of your answer is what I wanted to hear." That would be accurate. I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers.
     
  18. Particular

    Particular Active Member

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    It seems you are trying to say that people are not predestined to salvation, but they are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ...later on.
    If so, that's just silly on your part.
     
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  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, what were the answers you think I did not like and why do you think so for each?
     
  20. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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