Hundreds of WMDs found in Iraq

[Daisy]

Daisy, I'm not debating with you, just explaining how this stuff works.

*SNIP*

Degraded chemicals in cannisters with no delivery system in a dump are the big, bad WMDs? These are what posed such an imminent threat - mushroom clouds in 45 mins - that the inspectors had to be pulled out prematurely? You all are grasping at straws.

This is old news that Santorum is pretending is new.

 

[Revmitchell]

Degraded doesnt mean less dangerous. Nothing New? This declassified document is dated 6/21/2006. That pretty new.

Daisey how did you know about this since it was classified information until yesterday?

 

[Daisy]

Sadaam is a really bad dude.

Nobody disputes that point.

He not only had WMDs at one point, he used them on his own people.

What was that, like 20 years ago? Then would have been the time to object, don't you think? And I'm not sure that insurrectionist Kurds in league with the Iraqis' mortal enemies, the Iranians, exactly count as "his own people". Do you count native Americans the US genocided as "our own people"?

This vindicates Bush, who, BTW, now has the Euroweenies behind him on N. Korea & Iran. (Note that news didn't make the forum, but you have three threads on this story.)

This doesn't even begin to vindicate him. First off, you'd have to believe that that was the actual reason he invaded Iraq, then you'd have to convince yourself that dumped, degraded munitions were a real threat to the US. Then you'd have overlook the other, later rationales - we actually went to "liberate" the Iraqi people and bring them the gift of democracy.

As for Korea, one of the first things Bush did was scuttle the agreement the Clinton administration had worked out with North Korea and South Korea.

 

[Daisy]

Degraded doesnt mean less dangerous. Nothing New? This declassified document is dated 6/21/2006. That pretty new.

Yeah, that declassified memo was written on 6/21/2006 but the information has been known for a while. The report mentions stuff that was found in 2003 - that was years ago, not yesterday.

Daisey how did you know about this since it was classified information until yesterday?

Because if they were real WMDs, the Bush administration would not have admitted that none were found - they would have trumpetted it across all of talk radiodom. Do you think the administration would have just sat on that kind of information until Bush's rating sunk this low?

 

[Revmitchell]

You dont have to convince your self because the threat is obvious. If these get in the hands of the terrorists then they would be on their way to us. Read the document. The proof is in.

 

[Daisy]

You dont have to convince your self because the threat is obvious. If these get in the hands of the terrorists then they would be on their way to us. Read the document. The proof is in.

Um, these were in the hands of terrorists for more than twenty years. Remember Saddam? Is he or is he not supposed to be a terrorist?

 

[Phillip]

Degraded chemicals in cannisters with no delivery system in a dump are the big, bad WMDs? These are what posed such an imminent threat - mushroom clouds in 45 mins - that the inspectors had to be pulled out prematurely? You all are grasping at straws.

This is old news that Santorum is pretending is new.

Daisy, did you read anything I said?

These ARE big bad WMD's with the potential of killing THOUSANDS of innocent people. One DROP of Sarin will kill 50 people. You have thousands of gallons of this stuff. It is contained in containers that still have explosives in them to spread the stuff.

In reality, I don't know who said this stuff degrades, but typically most chemical weapons actually become more potent and more corrosive to its container.

Personally, if I were assigned the EOD job of clearing this I would rather get rid of four or five nuclear bombs than a big stack of rusty old chemical shells.

If just ONE explosive charge detonates it will split open many of these old shells and heaven help any cities downwind (let alone every soldier guarding the cache).

If you think 500 chemical shells are no big deal, you obviously know NOTHING about chemical weapons. Why in the WORLD do you think the Geneva convention has outlawed gas as a legitimate weapon of war?

I would have been scared to death to hear they found ten Sarin or Mustard shells, but these guys found close to FIVE HUNDRED.

The EOD is going to be EXTREMELY dangerous and again I ask for you to pray for the guys who will have to do this. Ihave yet to talk to our safety group to find out what kind of plan they can use in Iraq to get rid of 500 rounds of gas with any safety to the population.

Obviously, you didn't read my post, because NOW I AM DEBATING--you have some BIG lessons to learn in ordinance and how DEADLY it really is.

 

[Phillip]

Degraded chemicals in cannisters with no delivery system in a dump are the big, bad WMDs? These are what posed such an imminent threat - mushroom clouds in 45 mins - that the inspectors had to be pulled out prematurely? You all are grasping at straws.

This is old news that Santorum is pretending is new.

By the way, those agents don't care whether they are in a dump downwind from a small city or sitting in YOUR back yard with your family at home----they are JUST as deadly and the threat of just exposing these makes them an imminent threat to soldiers, EOD and civilians, plus if they are blister gases they will contaminate the land and possibly enter the food chain.

You have NO idea what you are dealing with here---this is NOT the same old story you think it is---this is the next step down from a live nuclear weapon counting down and MUCH more difficult to safely neutralize.

If I didn't work with this stuff I wouldn't be so adament about its lethality, but ordinance doesn't care WHO it kills. Every single one of these shells were designed for mass killing. Now, multiply that by 500. Wow, I can't believe how nieve people are.

Maybe they can bring one of these over to you house and sit it in your front yard so you'll have a souvineer of one of these "big bad" WMD's that Bush was supposedly lying about. Then you can invite the whole town over and have someone kick it a few times to see if the container has any corroded spots on it. I'll read in the paper just how much the chemicals degraded.

By the way, when they say degraded--they may have dropped in strength by five percent? So, instead of killing 5000 people with a shell we just permamently injure five percent of them, after 95% are already dead.

Do ya get it now?

 

[KenH]

Come on, Daisy. The Bush supporters have been having a really bad year. If this story puts a little pep back into their step, then let them enjoy it while they can.

 

[James_Newman]

Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.


"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

This is really just a lucky find for Bush. I wonder if Saddam even knew this stuff was there. We were sure that if he had any chemical agents he would not hesitate to use them.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Based on what his senior officials said, he kept them so in the dark that they thought they had things they did not have.

 

[Scott J]

As for Korea, one of the first things Bush did was scuttle the agreement the Clinton administration had worked out with North Korea and South Korea.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What a joke... The N Koreans were developing nukes in violation of that agreement the whole time. Bush "scuttled" it because it wasn't legitimate. Clinton either didn't know or didn't want to know... maybe he figured he'd be out of office and the next guy could deal with it. Passing the buck/blame was one of the primary Clinton Administration rules.

 

[Daisy]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What a joke... The N Koreans were developing nukes in violation of that agreement the whole time. Bush "scuttled" it because it wasn't legitimate. Clinton either didn't know or didn't want to know... maybe he figured he'd be out of office and the next guy could deal with it. Passing the buck/blame was one of the primary Clinton Administration rules.

The agreement had just been made. It had given North Korea incentives not to develop nukes. They not not been in violation as it had not been finalized before Bush decided to withdraw.

It was no joke at all. South Korea is the biggest target and they thought the treaty was good. My impression is that the Bush administration scuttled it - and put nothing in its place - because credit might have gone to the previous president. I wouldn't be at all surprised that had more than a little with their disregard of Clark's warning re terrorists.

 

[Daisy]

Based on what his senior officials said, he kept them so in the dark that they thought they had things they did not have.

Not only that, but the deception apparently went both ways - nobody wanted to tell Saddam that the nuclear programme had gone nowhere. If it weren't tragic, it would be funny.

Phillip,

If the chemicals were not weapons grade and there was no delivery system, then the only way it would be a threat to us - how many thousands of miles away are we from them? - is if we invaded them.

 

[Scott J]

The agreement had just been made. It had given North Korea incentives not to develop nukes. They not not been in violation as it had not been finalized before Bush decided to withdraw.

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200310221200.asp

You can disregard the commentary if you like but the "1994 Agreed Framework" was in place for some time before Bush "scuttled" it... in fact, the evidence suggests that just as I said, the North Koreans cheated on it under Clinton.

It was no joke at all. South Korea is the biggest target and they thought the treaty was good.

Proof please since the N Koreans took all the free goodies and still managed to attain nukes.

My impression is that the Bush administration scuttled it - and put nothing in its place - because credit might have gone to the previous president.

Credit?:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: You mean credit for feeding the N Koreans while they spent their own money on attaining nukes?

I wouldn't be at all surprised that had more than a little with their disregard of Clark's warning re terrorists.

Oh please... Clinton left Bush in the hole on that one too. It took them six months to catch up on the threat. The assessment arrived on 9/12 ironically.

 

[Scott J]

If the chemicals were not weapons grade and there was no delivery system, then the only way it would be a threat to us - how many thousands of miles away are we from them? - is if we invaded them.

Or they put them on a fishing boat or an airplane cargo hold or a Cessna or bring them in across the Canadian border on horseback or bring them in somewhere along the 1000's of miles of unguarded coastline we have or...

BTW, What Phillip (who apparently has military expertise on this very subject) is telling you is that the chemicals would not have degraded to the point of becoming impotent.

 

[poncho]

What you aren't undrestanding Scott is that the invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam was decided in 1996 by the neocons and Israelis. All those reasons Bush gave us for the Iraq war were, how shall I put this?... LIES.

http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

 

[webdog]

What you aren't undrestanding Scott is that the invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam was decided in 1996 by the neocons and Israelis. All those reasons Bush gave us for the Iraq war were, how shall I put this?... LIES.

http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

Explain why Saddam wasn't removed THEN?

I wish the liberals would swallow their pride for a moment and realize that finding these WMD's are a GOOD THING! You would think you guys would never have wanted them found.

 

[poncho]

Explain why Saddam wasn't removed THEN?

I wish the liberals would swallow their pride for a moment and realize that finding these WMD's are a GOOD THING! You would think you guys would never have wanted them found.

What's so hard to figure out? Regime change was beyond their power until 2001. I wish neoliberals would quit calling paleoconservatives liberals. It's getting real old.

 

[webdog]

What's so hard to figure out? Regime change was beyond their power until 2001.

Why was it "beyond their control" if they have the full backing of the US? It almost happened in '90.

I wish neoliberals would quit calling paleoconservatives liberals. It's getting real old.

Liberal is a lot shorter and means about the same thing... :laugh: