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I believe TULIP

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Mar 18, 2003.

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  1. William C

    William C New Member

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    Total Depravity - Mankind is born guilty and with a nature of sin. When faced with God's revelation of himself through the creation or his special revelation through his Word and man rebels against it his thoughts become futile and his heart becomes calloused. God though patient with his creation will eventually "give them over" to the lusts of their flesh.

    Notice: I didn't say they were born totally depraved, but that they become totally depraved after dening and rebelling from the things of God. They become hardened, but they are not born hardened as the typical Calvinists teaches.

    Unconditional Election- God unconditionally elected 12 Jews, who deserved to be hardened right along with the rest of them, to carry out the plan of redemption by proclaiming a righteousness that comes to all mankind through faith.

    God elected to use the nation of Israel and individual Isrealites to bring redemption to the world. God also elected to allow all mankind entrance into covenant with him through the means of faith.

    Limited Atonement - Christ's atonement is only applied particularly to those who have faith in Christ.

    Irresistable Grace - or better stated "Effectual call". God called his apostles effectually to accomplish a divine purpose in redemption history. They are to preach the gospel to every creature by the power of the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit is resisted (Acts 7:51) and men are often unwilling despite God's longing to gather them together with him (Matt. 23:37). But, when men refused their message they were instructed to dust their feet and move on in order to proclaim the gospel to all the world.

    Preserverence of the Saints - Those who perservere to the end will be saved. Those who don't won't.
     
    #1 William C, Mar 18, 2003
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    You may believe in your interpretation of TULIP but that is not it... At least now we know why you are no longer Calvinist Brother Bill... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
    #2 tyndale1946, Mar 18, 2003
  3. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I thought I posted here already. I guess it was removed, if it was offensive forgive me.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #3 Frogman, Mar 18, 2003
  4. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Well Brother Bill,

    You have declared it plainly so that the whole world can see.

    You ain't a Baptist!
     
    #4 Hardsheller, Mar 18, 2003
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Funny, I would have assumed the acronym for your theology would be something more like Daffodil. ;)
     
    #5 npetreley, Mar 18, 2003
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Brother Dallas nothing was removed or deleted... If it was you would have been notified by me or Pastor Larry... Could it be you posted it in another forum ;) ... Go ahead and post it again and I'll see if it is worth deleting :D ... Just kidding... You were saying :confused: ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
    #6 tyndale1946, Mar 19, 2003
  7. William C

    William C New Member

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    Dallas, I don't think that is possible. With all of those posts out there by Nick, there is no way they could find your posts too offensive. ;)
     
    #7 William C, Mar 19, 2003
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I was at a different computer and perhaps I did not successfully post, or maybe I did post on another thread and thought I was answering this one.

    I don't think it would necessarily have been offensive, yet in hindsight, after I saw it removed, this seemed more tactful, hence the mighty hand of God!! [​IMG]

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #8 Frogman, Mar 19, 2003
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Here is your first error.

    Unconditional Election- God unconditionally elected 12 Jews, who deserved to be hardened right along with the rest of them, to carry out the plan of redemption by proclaiming a righteousness that comes to all mankind through faith.

    Here you develop a doctrine which teaches God is a respecter of men. That which gives you difficulty with Calvin's TULIP seems to be dragged along with you. Don't let this bother you, Luther couldn't fully escape his beliefs either, nor Calvin, nor can any who separate themselves from the truth that is found in the Doctrines of Grace. The wisest question I have seen on this board is posted to Arminiaists and free-willers and asks if they pray for God to save a sinner is this not acknowledging the sinner has no ability within himself? We should learn what this means and effectively teach it to our people.

    Here you begin correctly: 'Christ's atonement is only applied particularly...' but you sway from solid ground and into a swamp of hardship with the completion of your statement because you do greater harm to the atonement by limiting God and not man.

    Again you itemize to such an extent that the arguments you devise against the true doctrine of irresistable grace are rendered as ably against you. Once again showing the baggage you have carried with you, as you leave the doctrinal safety of your previous camp.

    [/QUOTE]

    Take note of those to whom this doctrine is referring to. It does not say 'perserverance of the church member, nor of the moral legalist, nor of the man who is able to keep himself (which topic is a priceless study, I will post what the Lord has blessed me with in the future).

    This says perserverance of the saints. This is speaking of they who have been made partakers of the heavenly calling, of whom it is said their blood is precious in his sight. More correctly: "Those who don't, ain't."

    (I know 'ain't' is not a word, but I am from KY and I do have a state image to uphold.) :D

    The very fact that you post under the title TULIP tells me that you still hold dear those doctrine God has taught you brother, hang in there he will, as he did Job, restore to you twofold and your latter end shall be more than your beginning.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
    #9 Frogman, Mar 19, 2003
  10. William C

    William C New Member

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    Is that not the pot calling the kettle black.

    Is it unjust for God to use some of Israel for noble purposes (like apostleship) and others for common use (like hardening). No. "He has mercy on whom he want to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

    You also pray that God guides you in your job change don't you. Do you think you don't have a decision in the matter or is God going to supernaturally indwell you and make the decision for you? Pray is asking for God's guidance and direction, not for Him to do everything for us.

    Ha, its funny you say that Dallas because I only limited it as much as scripture does. He atones or saves whosoever believes. Are you saying the bible limits God too?

    I care little for safety, I'm searching for truth of which you haven't really touch on yet.

    I could see this being acceptable. However there are some problem texts. Romans 11 clearly states that those who are being saved should fear because they could be cut off if they too become hardened to the things of God.

    Also have you read the parable of the Master with the servant who he forgive of a great debt and then the servant goes out and beats up a guy who owes him a little money. The Master hears of this and then punishes him, taking away his forgivenness and casting him into prison.

    That sure sounds like the guy had been forgiven and it was taken away because he didn't forgive others to me. There are many verses that speak of the conditions that men must meet to remain secure. Forgiveness is one of them. Now, I know that Calvinist argue that if men don't forgive, or fulfill these "conditions" its because they weren't really ever saved. But is that really consistant? When you lust after a woman does that mean your really not a believer? No. So why when you fail to forgive someone does that prove your really "ain't" a saint? It seems to me the writers of the NT weren't trying to be careful in preserving this doctrine of security that we have created today. They were pretty clear to teach that if you do this, don't feel secure about anything. But FEAR GOD for if he was willing to cut off his own people how much more so would he be willing to cut you off! That's scary, and I think Calvinist like to ignore it or explain it away.

    Actually the reason I posted under TULIP is because I wanted you all to see that some of what you teach is in the scripture but you missapply it to develop a false soteriology. I will continue to believe that until someone starts giving some clear and reasonable answers concerning Israel's hardening as it relates to "total depravity."

    God Bless.
     
    #10 William C, Mar 19, 2003
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    This would be no more just than for God to have sovereignly elected all who are saved. We do not know true justice because we cannot judge in the perspective of righteousness which God possesses, even in a saved condition we lack this ability.

    God Bless.
    Bro. dallas
     
    #11 Frogman, Mar 19, 2003
  12. William C

    William C New Member

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    I agree that God is the measure of justice, but you said, This would be no more just than for God to have sovereignly elected all who are saved.

    That is completely wrong.

    Israel's hardening was temporary. That in no way is the same as God never allowing them an entrance into the kingdom as you teach.
     
    #12 William C, Mar 19, 2003
  13. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    What an ignorant thing to say. Who are you to decide who is or is not a baptist. :mad: I would sooner attend a BAPTIST church that believed like Brother Bill than one that believed this man made doctrine called Calvinism.
     
    #13 Terry_Herrington, Mar 19, 2003
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Can't we all admit that we all believe man's interpretation of the Scriptures, whether our own or someone else's? I admit I do. [​IMG]
     
    #14 KenH, Mar 19, 2003
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    What of those dying in this hardened state?

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #15 Frogman, Mar 19, 2003
  16. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24 New Member

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    Q. What about predestination? God has already selected the ones He wants to be saved so He predestinates them to be saved. Doesn't the Bible say that God predestinates people?
    A. God foreknew who would respond to the gospel call and predestinated them based on FOREKNOWLEDGE--not that He selected some to be saved and some for burning. God allows wicked people to exist in order to accomplish His purposes. Every man is an evil creature--we need affliction that we may learn to fear the Lord (see Psalm 107 in its entirety). The vessels of wrath accomplish that purpose.

    Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    Psalms 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Q. What about unconditional election? Doesn't our sovereign God select who He wants to go to heaven just because He feels like it? Doesn't He pre-ordain peope to hell just because he feels like it?
    A. No. It is God's will that ALL men should be saved. He strives with men. A man has to climb over heavenly obstacles in order to go to hell--


    1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,

    Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, WHOSOEVER believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Romans 10:13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    GOD WANTS ALL MEN TO REPENT!

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

    Ezekiel 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Q. What about "limited atonement"? Jesus only died for the sins of the elect, right?
    A. Wrong. Jesus did not just die for the sins of the elect, He died for the sins of ALL--


    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

    2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were all dead:

    2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Q. What about irresisitable grace? Isn't it true that man doesn't have a freewill? We call Arminians "freewillers".
    A. Through , His prophets, God constantly tells the people throughout the word to choose life. He sets before them and says CHOOSE life. God expects and requires man to make a choice--

    Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Man does have a FREEWILL and God accepts his FREEWILL offerings.

    Deuteronomy 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your FREEWILL offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
    Psalms 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the FREEWILL offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.
     
    #16 Matthew 16:24, Mar 19, 2003
  17. William C

    William C New Member

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    Because they have already made their choices God would not be unjust in allowing them to die in that hardened state. What made them hardened in the first place is as you said, their sinful rebellion. God is patient with them, but he is not required to be patient until they die, if he so desires He can hardened them by his will in order to accomplish a purpose through them.

    Many disagree on how long this temporary hardening lasted, or is lasting. Personally I believe the God's active hardening probably ended at pentacost. Which would mean that this hardening would have been a fairly short period of time. I'm guessing this because it does appear that many of those who crucified Christ and were rebellious toward him during his public ministry are saved in Acts 2 and 3. But, I think that we have to speculate on that.

    This wouldn't change the fact that many of the people were still "self hardened." The Bible continually warns people, especially believers, not to harden themselves as did the Israelites during" the rebellion." (Heb. 3)

    Is it possible for true believers to become hardened in sin once again? The author of Hebrews seems to think so.

    I believe there is a hardening that is done by God's will and an self hardening that is done by our will over a period of time. It seems to me that God's hardening is unable to be influenced by any outside motivator so as to ensure the purpose of God's plan in hardening them. Self-hardening is at all different levels depending upon how long you've lived in active rebellion, how often you've rejected God revelation of himself, etc. But, it seems to be penetrated by certain outward motivators such as fear, envy (Roman 11), crisis or tragedy (the one of the reasons for suffering in our world) and a host of other such things that can provoke a man's will. The greatest of these would obviously be the gospel presentation by the power of the HS. No doubt this can be resisted, especially by those who are set in their ways (Act 7:51) , but its not because of God's choosing that these people are "unwilling" or "unable" to respond in faith.

    I, like many of you, were raised in a Christian home and never really experienced the hardening of sin by living in complete rebellion to God. No doubt we are all sinners to the core and stand just a guilty before a righteous judge, but we were not "hardened" in the biblical sense of the word. However, eventhough I trusted in Christ at a young age I saw within my life the grave potential of becoming hardened especially in the area of lust. As a young man I allowed myself to continually gratify these sinful desires to a point that I could have seen myself become completely hardened and consumed by that lifestyle. By the grace of God I recieved accoutablity and forgiveness in that area of my life and was spared becoming hardened to God's ways in my rebellion.
     
    #17 William C, Mar 19, 2003
  18. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Can't we all admit that we all believe man's interpretation of the Scriptures, whether our own or someone else's? I admit I do. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Yes Ken I agree. I think it is more a matter of what we have been taught since we have become Christians.
     
    #18 Terry_Herrington, Mar 20, 2003
  19. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I disagree. Sure, what we are taught influences us, but what I was always "taught" was free will. Bily Graham still preaches it. Every church I have attended, save one, preached it. The church I now attend still preaches it.

    Obviously, my personal experience isn't a scientific survey that proves it is the most popular doctrine, but if it is, then it's small wonder most Christians start out as arminians. What else could they be, since that's what they were taught from the beginning? If anything else is true, you pretty much have to find out for yourself, or stumble upon other teaching in a bookstore or on the radio.
     
    #19 npetreley, Mar 20, 2003
  20. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I thought we were talking about the hardening of Israel and that God had done this so they would not believe in Christ and etc.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #20 Frogman, Mar 20, 2003
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