I got myself in trouble

Abraham Kuyper, Work of the Holy Spirit:

Contrast John Calvin on the same OP passage:

And John R. Rice:

 

Amy,
Pardon me for being nosy, but how did it go Wednesday evening?

 

In Chapter 1...Paul is talking about ALL of mankind, mainly all of the non Jews. Paul keeps building his case till he reaches Romans 3...ALL have sinned.

 

I think we can all agree that this is about the general sinfulness of the Gentiles (ch. 1) and later the Jews (ch 2-3) in that they "all have sinned" and "turned away and together have become worthless."

But clearly not everyone had at that point in history actually turned away and become "given over" in rebellion. Whether you are Calvinist or Arminian you acknowledge that Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness, and Job was found blameless, and Rahab was faithful, and David was a man after Gods own heart and Cornelius feared the Lord etc etc.

The question is how and why did these people acknowledge God and thus not rebel and become calloused in their rebellion like the rest?

The Calvinist teaches its because they were elected and thus effectually brought to this choice. The Arminian believes they freely chose to respond to God's revelation and thus are "credit" righteousness. Thus, when Paul says "none are righteous" he doesn't mean no one has ever been declared righteous, because then he would be contradicting himself when later he says Abraham was righteous. Paul is saying NNE IS RIGHTEOUS ACCORDING TO THE LAW. But there are those who are righteous according to faith.

Whether we are effectually brought to faith or not is our point of contention here, not what you all seem to be debating. And since the logic of Calvinism belief rest on the T of it TULIP, I think it would be wise to examine the fact that the people spoken of in Romans 1 weren't born "given over" and "calloused." They BECAME such only after rebellion, which suggests to the unbiased and non-indoctrinated reader that there is a time in which one might see, hear, and understand God's revelations so as to turn to him for healing prior to being "given over."

"For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'" Matt. 13

This would also explain why Jesus would point to a child as an example of what men must become like in order to enter the kingdom.

 

Unless I read the thread wrong, I disagree. Most are saying there are 3 people here, (the non-believe, the reprobate, and later those that believe. and I disagree with this, and will be ready to argue why.

There are only two states man will find himself in. A believer or a non-believer. People are not ALMOST saved. Spare me the verse..."ALMOST THOU PERSUADEST ME". That is a REJECTION of Christ. That verse shows Pauls point of reprobation in Romans 1.

Reprobation is in 2 parts.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] Its first part consists in nonelection. Its second part consists in condemnation of sin. Peter is careful to refer to both: "[Christ is] a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
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Yes, I do believe that is Paul point. In other words, I am disagreeing with you. Paul begins telling us he is going to tell us about the gospel.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
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Paul then gives the main point of why Gods love is so great. That is Gods wrath is great. He does this be showing how bad mankind is and why God is just in having that wrath. The point is not that David and the others you listed were good, the point is the good that you see in them came from God.

Indeed it is. Paul tells us why later in the book.

No...he does mean it. He is giving the full picture of Gods wrath. Later when Paul shows Gods grace in election, he still makes the point, it is not based on what they did. Its not because they did something, therefore they are now believers. When Paul paints his picture, he paints it in light of what is coming. The good news is good, because the bad news is so bad. You keep wanting to say...well its not that bad. No..Paul says it is BAD.

No he is not. Paul goes out of his way to say ALL of mankind is BAD. In Chapter 3 he asked, is the Jews better because they have the law? NO..they are just as bad as others...pointing back to Romans 1.

 

But why would God refer to Job and Noah as blameless, Abraham as Righteous and all the other texts that refer to those who never do rebel against God in the way Romans 1 describes?

I agree there are two groups. Believers and unbelievers. But within the believers there are those who have "grown hardened" and those who clearly haven't. Like the children Jesus points to when he gives an example of what men must become in order to enter the kingdom.

Clearly not everyone is "given over in rebellion" because not everyone actually rebelled in this way. Some people (whether effectually caused or not) actually acknowledged God as God and did not resort to this type of rebellion spoken of by Paul. Now, we can move on to talk about whether that choice was free or effectually caused by God, but we really shouldn't be disagreeing on this point I don't think.

I was raised in church all my life. Obviously I've sinned, no doubt, but I've never rebelled to the level of those spoken of in Romans 1. Is that because God elected and effectually called me to himself at a young age, maybe...you would need to make that case, but nevertheless, the verses couldn't be about me or others who never grow to this level of hardness toward God's revealed truth.

 

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

again romans 1 is talking about how bad man is. You know of other verses that say this man did good and that man was righteous and you wrongly try to force this on the text to over turn Paul's clear teaching. Granted these verse must be considered and Paul does later in Romans. But here it is clear that his point is that ALL HAVE SINNED and are in rebel against God.

So how do you explain Job? they were...."justified by his grace as a gift"

This does not mean they were SINLESS....or NOT REBELS....
They were justified BY GRACE.

I'm not sure you know what harden means. The non-believer has a hard heart. God must remove that heart in order form them to believe.......

14 The word of the LORD came to me: 15 “Son of man, the people of Jerusalem have said of your fellow exiles and all the other Israelites, ‘They are far away from the LORD; this land was given to us as our possession.’ 16 “Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Although I sent them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries, yet for a little while I have been a sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.’
17 “Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.’
18 “They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols. 19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.





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Why do others harden their hearts more? Because God has not changed their hearts... One this is done.....

20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts are devoted to their vile images and detestable idols, I will bring down on their own heads what they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

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I see no point to keep quoting Paul. Believe what you want. That is what THE BIBLE SAYS.

Jesus walked away from many that said they believe. He said they did not. Salvation is not believing in God, because even the devil does this. Salvation is believing God.

 

I still don't know why we are arguing on this subject. Did you read what I wrote because you don't seem to be hearing me. I acknowledged that all have sinned and fallen short. And that no one is righteous according to the law, remember?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe Paul is speaking of Calvinist's elect when he writes, "21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them???

Do other Calvinistic scholars also believe God is speaking of the elect in this passage? If so, can you point me to those commentaries, so I can read up on this and try to understand your perspective. Thanks

 

Yes I read it. You want to "go on" thinking you have the answers.

Barnhouse has a 4 book work on Romans. His 1st book is called.." Gods' Wrath"..

page 216..on verse 18..
The announcement of the gospel is over and now there is the beginning of a great argument that might be called the charge of the prosecution in the case against man.

Hodge writes that...

The apostle’s object is to prove the doctrine of the preceding verse, viz., that righteousness is by faith. To do this it was necessary to show that men in themselves are exposed to condemnation, or are destitute of any righteousness which can satisfy the demands of God. His argument is, God is just; he is determined to punish sin, and as all men are sinners, all are exposed to punishment. Hence this verse is connected by gar to the preceding one. Men must be justified by faith, for the wrath of God is revealed, etc. (Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans)

John Piper ….

Why does Paul introduce v18 with the word "for" or "because"? He does this in order to show that everything he is going to say about sin is meant to support the GOSPEL of Ro 1:17. He does not mention the gospel for the sake of sin. He deals with sin for the sake of the GOSPEL. UNDERSTANDING SIN is the FOUNDATION that upholds the preciousness of the GOSPEL, not vice versa. His main aim is not to lead us from gospel to sin, but from sin to gospel. If you have been caught in a crime and are facing trial, and I say to you, "I have a letter here from the Hennepin County Court that they have dropped the charges against you, because you were guilty and liable to severe punishment," what's the point? The point of saying that you were guilty is to help you understand and cherish the good news that the charges are dropped. That's the point of "for" at the beginning of v18. (The Wrath of God Against Holding Down the Truth)

Arthur Pink …...

His eternal detestation of all unrighteousness. It is the displeasure and indignation of Divine equity against evil. It is the holiness of God stirred into activity against sin”

Vine has an interesting insight

The subject of the wrath of God recurs throughout the first part of the Epistle (Ro 2:5, 8; 3:5; 4:15; 5:9; 9:22). In this Epistle, which treats especially of the gospel, the differing attributes of God are set forth in a manner which reveals His character as a whole. While the gospel reveals Him as infinitely merciful, His mercy is not characterized by leniency toward sin. The Scriptures never reveal one attribute of God at the expense of another. The revelation of His wrath is essential to a right understanding of His ways in grace."

John MacArthur adds that "all" indicates that...

God’s wrath is universal, being discharged against all who deserve it. No amount of goodwill, giving to the poor, helpfulness to others, or even service to God can exclude a person from the all Paul mentions here...Obviously, some people are morally better than others, but even the most moral and upright person falls far short of God’s standard of perfect righteousness. No one escapes. (MacArthur, J: Romans 1-8. Chicago: Moody Press or Logos)

 

Vincent's

All men require this mode of justification, for all men are sinners, and therefore exposed to God's wrath.


CALVIN...

He first condemns all mankind from the beginning of the world for ingratitude, because they recognized not the workman in his extraordinary work: nay, when they were constrained to acknowledge him, they did not duly honor his majesty, but in their vanity profaned and dishonored it. Thus all became guilty of impiety, a wickedness more detestable than any thing else. And that he might more clearly show that all had departed from the Lord, he recounts the filthy and horrible crimes of which men everywhere became guilty: and this is a manifest proof, that they had degenerated from God, since these sins are evidences of divine wrath, which appear not except in the ungodly. And as the Jews and some of the Gentiles, while they covered their inward depravity by the veil of outward holiness, seemed to be in no way chargeable with such crimes, and hence thought themselves exempt from the common sentence of condemnation, the Apostle directs his discourse against this fictitious holiness; and as this mask before men cannot be taken away from saintlings, (sanctulis — petty saints,) he summons them to the tribunal of God, whose eyes no latent evils can escape. Having afterwards divided his subject, he places apart both the Jews and the Gentiles before the tribunal of God. He cuts off from the Gentiles the excuse which they pleaded from ignorance, because conscience was to them a law, and by this they were abundantly convicted as guilty. He chiefly urges on the Jews that from which they took their defense, even the written law; and as they were proved to have transgressed it, they could not free themselves from the charge of iniquity, and a sentence against them had already been pronounced by the mouth of God himself. He at the same time obviates any objection which might have been made by them — that the covenant of God, which was the symbol of holiness, would have been violated, if they were not to be distinguished from others. Here he first shows, that they excelled not others by the right of the covenant, for they had by their unfaithfulness departed from it: and then, that he might not derogate from the perpetuity of the divine promise, he concedes to them some privilege as arising from the covenant; but it proceeded from the mercy of God, and not from their merits. So that with regard to their own qualifications they were on a level with the Gentiles. He then proves by the authority of Scripture, that both Jews and Gentiles were all sinners; and he also slightly refers to the use of the law.


CARR..

Paul's purpose here, and through chapter 3 verse 20, is to describe for us the charges against man. Paul is going to tell us why we need to believe the Gospel of grace. The first argument he uses to call men to the Lord is to lay out the case of the prosecution. Paul is going to reveal that problems God sees with men. However, before we can understand why God is angry, we need to know a little more about the anger of God.


Deffinbaugh….
The indictment of 1:19-20 would seem to apply most directly to the Gentile heathen, while that of 1:32 seems to be aimed more directly at the Jews. The minimal amount of revelation is that which can be seen from creation. This is referred to in 1:20. The greatest revelation of God’s character is that found in the Law, and this is referred to in 1:32. Thus, everyone from the bush man in some remote jungle to the unbelieving Jewish Rabbi is under divine sentence for rejecting the revelation which God has given him. Romans 1:18-32 therefore indicts both the Jews and the Gentiles—and not just the Gentiles.

This paragraph is a general statement, describing the present wrath of God as the necessary response of a righteous God to man’s sin. The principle is stated in verse 18: God’s wrath is presently being revealed against all the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. All mankind is guilty before God and deserving of His wrath, because men are suppressing God’s truth by means of their own sin.


Johnson..


Now Romans 1, and 2, and 3, to chapter 3, verse 21, is not very pleasant so far as a message is concerned. Because it is a passage that gives us an analysis of human nature and human nature is not good in its state since the fall. Walter Luthi, who was one of the reform preachers in the city of Berne, in one of his books has commented upon this particular chapter and has said that, "it gives us the whole truth about our condition" and it really does do that.

It is important for us because it is the passage that contains an answer to the perennial question, "Are the heathen lost?" And the apostle answers it very directly for he says of all men that they are without excuse. It is a passage, also, that illustrates a very important principle that we'll talk about a little bit later on. And that is that perversion in life stems from perversion in faith and that's why the faith is so important for us. That's expressed in verse 18 and again in other places throughout this passage.

Piper…

Today we take a major turn in the letter of Paul to the Romans. Romans 1:16-17 is the theme of the letter: the gospel is the power of God to save believers from the wrath to come. And this gospel - this good news of Jesus' death and resurrection - has that power to save believers from God's wrath, because in the gospel, day by day, week after week, year after year, God keeps on revealing his righteousness as a gift to be received by faith and for faith, so that those who have their righteousness from God (and not themselves) will not perish but have everlasting life.

Now having described the greatness of his theme, which he will come back to and unpack in wonderful and profound ways in future chapters, Paul enters on a description of human sin and God's wrath in Romans 1:18-3:19. In Romans 1:18 to 32 Paul speaks of the condition of the gentile world apart from the gospel and apart from saving grace. Then in Romans 2:1-3:8 Paul deals more or less directly with the Jewish condition. Then in Romans 3:9-10 he draws his summary conclusion like this: "What then? Are we [Jews] better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, 'THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE.'" That is the point of Romans 1:18-3:10. Then Paul piles Scripture upon Scripture in Romans 3:10-19 to support his point of universal sinfulness and guilt and rebellion against God in every human heart.

He wraps up the section with this summary in Romans 3:19, "Now we know that whatever the Law [the Old Testament Word of God] says, it speaks to those who are under the Law [the Jewish people], so that every mouth [all the nations, all the Gentiles] may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God." We will talk later in this series about why God chose to silence the world by dealing mainly with the Jews. But that is the truth. Paul seems to mean if the Jews, with all their advantages of divine revelation, have not been righteous before God, but only sinful and guilty (3:9), how much less will the Gentiles be able to open their mouths and protest that they have been righteous before God.