I have a question about titles ( Pastors ext. )

It seems strange for them to require you to call them "Pastor."

 

Strange indeed.

Calling their pastors "apostles" is a bit outside the maintstream. Most Christians leave the term "apostle" to the original twelve, as defined by someone who had direct teaching from Christ himself. From what I understand, Catholic & Orthodox churches see their bishops as successors to the original twelve but I don't think they would call them apostles.

From a broader perspective, perhaps you could refer to someone as an apostle since he is a respresentative of God. However, I'm afraid that this takes on more than this in this situation -- something more akin to receiving special dispensations from God. Personally, it makes me nervous and sends a big warning sign.

 

Apostle means "one who is sent." I wouldn't consider someone an apostle just because he was a spiritual father to several churches. The "Apostles" seemed to be a group of people specifically commissioned by Jesus.

As far as possible other uses, the idea of an apostle seems to be closely related to the idea of a missionary.

Concerning that they wanted to be called "Pastor"...

Just because pastors are to be respected, that doesn't mean that they should insist on it in such a manner.

 

"Apostle" seems to be a special title given to those who were specifically chosen for that office by Christ himself. Judas was one of them, but betrayed Jesus, and ultimately wound up killing himself. The remaining apostles understood the actions of Judas were fulfilling scripture, and chose a replacement to bring the number back to twelve. I believe that Paul, however, was the true replacement, having been chosen by Christ himself. After a quick study of the word "apostle" in scripture, you will notice Paul and Peter call themselves apostles while never referring to others as apostles.

Paul didn't even think he was worthy of the title:

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

That's humility, I respect that.

 

Both "pastor" and "apostle" are offices and not names, anyway.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I don't know about this particular church. I believe there can be apostles, but do think there is a major misunderstanding regarding the role of apostle.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they had many teachers, but not many fathers, for in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, he had become their father. So some people conclude that an apostle is a 'spiritual father.' But if we really consider the context and other passages to the Corinthians, we realize that Paul was like a father to them because he had spiritually birthed them through evangelism.

II Corinthians 10 shows us that Paul and his compantions had a measure of rule among the Corinthians because they had introduced the Gospel to their area. They wanted to expand this measure by evangelizing beyond their region into unreached regions. In this passage, he contrasts himself with those who did not win the Corinthians, but wanted to claim them as their own as if they had.

This is similar to the man who claims to be an apostle because he plants churches, but he didn't really win anyone to plant a church. He just gathered existing believers around himself who were already in the Lord, and boasted about them as if he had one them to Christ. There is nothing wrong with ministering to believers, and it is a good thing to do, but it does not make one an apostle.

In Matthew 10, Jesus designates 12 apostles and sends them out to preach, heal,cast out devils, and raise the dead in the same passage. Mark starts calling them apostles after they return from this journey.

Luke starts calling Paul and Barnabas apostles after they were sent out in Acts 13. They were in Antioch and they were ministering to the Lord with other prophets and teachers. The Spirit spoke and said to separate Saul and Barnabas for the work to which He had called them. They laid hands on them, and Saul and Barnabas went out, being sent by the Holy Spirit. They were called 'sent one's (that is, apostles) after this, twice in chapter 14.

So we see a common element here. These apostles took preaching journeys, proclaiming the gospel to the unreached. Today, some missionaries take on this role.

Paul talked about 'the seal of his apostleship.' A seal was a piece of wax or other material used to bind a scroll together. Kings, emporers, or officials would have a stamp to press onto the seal. This was evidence that the letter was from them. What was the seal, the evidence, that Paul was an apostle.

In I Corinthians 9, Paul wrote that if he were not an apostle to others, he was an apostle to the Corinthian church, for they were the seal of his apostleship in the Lord. That church was the result of his church planting efforts. They were birthed, spiritual through his, and his companions, evangelistic efforts.

I used to moderate a church planting forum which was predominantly a house church forum. There were a few church planters on there and I asked them if any of them were apostles. Now, a lot of house church people don't think of 'apostle' as some grand exalted title, but similar to what I described above. So I guess they felt free to open up about this. I can think of two who said they were. One was a house church planter who had ministered in England and was helping plant house churches in Spain. The other was a man who I've heard about in unreached people group circles. He hand planted 18 or so house churches in the US before going on to work behind the scenes in coaching people to plant house churches among Islmic peoples. Both men said they had done signs and wonders when I asked. They seem to fit the profile of 'apostle.'

On the other hand, there are preachers nowadays who try to put together a franchise of churches beneath themselves and lead, counsel, or tell the pastors what to do and call themselves 'apostles.' I don't see this as the essence of apostlship in the scriptures. In fact, I see a pattern of apostles starting out with a lot of responsibility in a local church, but eventually allowing others to take over. At first the 12 were apparently in charge of distributing food. But they gave it over to the Seven. At first, the proceeds from fields were put at their feet. Later, there were elders recieving funds brought from churches in other cities. The apostles gave themselves to teaching and to prayer.

Paul made a judgment for the Corinthians in I Corinthians 5, but he also exhorted them that they needed to judge and in chapter 6, he rebukes them for not judging their own disputes rather than going to a secular court. Paul wanted the Corinthians to grow up and be less dependant on him, not more dependant.


As far as titles go. I purposefully do not call someone 'Pastor so and so.' I would make an refrain from using 'apostle' or other ministry titles in that way. The reason is I think it goes against the principle of Matthew 23, which says not to be called 'rabbi' or 'teacher' or call another man 'Father.' Christ is our Master, as the passage points out. But Christ is also our Pastor (Shepherd) and why should we use such honorific titles for others. I will call someone 'Brother' to show respect, a title I can use not jut for the preacher, but for any man in the faith.

 

How about "Spiritual gifts" rather than 'offices' per se, at least as concerning the church, both as local and as the body of Christ? I submit that the only 'offices" one can definitely say are in the local church are that of saint, bishop/elder and deacon, although I do not quibble with someone who sees an office of deaconess, as well. I do say there is no such office as that of a "woman deacon".

Ed

 

Tali, I am going to attempt to suggest a very good thread, IMO, on this subject. The thread is:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30027&page=1&pp=10

If you cannot get something on this, post back, and I will reply to this older thread, hence hopefuly, moving it up to a current status.

Ed

 

Aside from a bit of either ego or 'hero worship', I seem to sense, I would suggest that I could offer the bio of a very close personal friend of mine, also now in the suburbs of Chicago, which could fairly closely mirror much of this, even to being born in 1946, 'founding' a church in Chicago in 1972, that is now located in the suburbs, and with a TV program that can be seen in several locations including Anchorage, AK; Naples/Ft. Myers, FL; the San Francisco Bay area in CA; and Birmingham, AL; and on cable and/or satellite (I'm technically slow, so am not sure exactly which this is, as I have neither in my rural home) almost anywhere, and is on the radio in several locations, from Albany, NY to Ft. Wayne, IN to Milwaukee, WI, and on XM radio nationwide. This ministry also encompasses various educational schools, as well as affiliates with "X*Y*Z" Theological Seminary. He has also written several books, including at least one or two that have been translated into other languages, I believe. He has also ministered on at least three continents, of which I'm aware, at times. FTR, a long time member of Congress is a regular member, and another powerful MC is a some-times attender.

Like you, I have deleted all names, as I do not normally 'promote' any individual, unless they were to ask me, and then would be reluctant, even for close friends. That is not my job, so I simply do not do it. And I assure you we are not talking about the same person, as well.
Just something to think about.

Ed

 

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Who are the twelve apostles of the Lamb? Is Paul one of them? If not, which one of the many, many other apostles is?

 

Personally, I lean toward Matthias.

Although that being a 'spiritual gift' and with over twenty identified in Scripture as 'Apostle' I'd offer that it could include only those whom we know, or perhaps some we do not even know, or have even heard of.

A verse that might (or not) show some light, is Jesus' proclamations, "Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful over a few things; I will make you ruler over many." And also, "He that would be greatest among you, let him be your servant." Both the "quotes" given may be inaccurate, as they are entirely from memory, but the idea is conveyed in those two Scriptures, nonetheless. In other words, we simply don't know 'Who' for certain, IMO.

Ed

 

Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Matthew 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Judas, for obvious reasons, would be removed from the list. One would take his place. Either that is Matthias, or Paul. I believe it could be Matthias, and, after Acts chapter 7, God appointed Paul the 13th apostle specificly to the gentiles. I really don't know. Aside from all that, I still lean toward Paul being the twelth. (I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time)

 

How do you know that the "twelve apostles" who were with the Lord on this earth, are necessarily the same as the "twelve Apostles" of the Lamb in Revelation, in the first place?

What about James, the Lord's brother, aka James the Just?

How about Barnabas, Andronicus, or Junia, who were all apostles, and all were in Christ before Paul?

As to Paul being "the twelth (sic)", what about James, the 'Great', who had been put to death by Herod, before Paul came onto the scene? Would that matter?

What would be the arbitrary date one would set as to "pickin' 'em"? Just some thoughts to consider.

Ed

 

Look in Matthew 23 to see what Jesus thought of religious leaders who loved "greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi." (v.7)

 

Okay, okay.... twelfth.

As I said in my previous post: "I really don't know" and "I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time".

 

I tend to think of the Apostles as the 12, who were eyewitnesses of Jesus. I don't see that the title applies today. (I could be wrong - I've been wrong before).

As a pastor, I don't require that people call me Pastor, although most do. Some call me Preacher, one even calls me Padre. Most of the children in my church call me Preacher or Pastor as a matter of respect.

I don't care what I'm called as long as it isn't Reverend. There are too many "Reverends" out there that I don't want to be associated with - Jackson, Sharpton, etc.

I would be concerened if someone requires his church members to call him Pastor.