I have a question...

Baptists hold to no creed..

BUt that creed I believe was developed before the RC was...
So I have no problem with it.

I learned it yrs ago. IN a Baptist church.

 

This Baptist holds to it, but Tim is right that famously Baptists hold to no creed. The one "catholic" church is not the same as Roman Catholic and the one baptism for remission of sins is a phrase that can be taken in different ways. The language is in keeping with Paul's talk of one Lord, one faith, one baptism...

Infant baptism was still a disputed practice in the fourth century when this creed was forged. I won't say that my understanding of catholic church and baptism for the remission of sins completely lines up with the framer's intent or what contemporary Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians say, but Baptists in the past were comfortable with the phrase "baptism for the remission of sins," noting that baptism was linked to one's confession and repentance of sin. I believe Thomas Grantham used it in this way in the seventeenth century.

 

I've never known a Baptist church to hold to this creed, but I have run into a few in other denominations who hold to it.

 

I don't know, I believe in the communion of the saints as well as what is commonly called the universal church, and I'm a Baptist. I know other Baptists here and elsewhere who vigorously oppose what is called the universal church. I don't think denying it is a Baptist distinctive.

 

Am I correctly assuming that the bride of Christ and the universal church are not the same thing?

Our church believes that all born again Christians from all over the world make up the bride of Christ, but we do believe in joining and supporting the local church body of believers.

 

I suspect a majority of Baptists today believe in the so-called Universal Church, but a significant number hold that the New Testament knows only of local congregations. Baptists, particularly Southern Baptists, began moving away with the rise of the popularity of dispensationalism, which requires a universal church as part of its system.

The proper description is not THE Baptist Church, meaning the Baptist denomination. The governmental structure gives sole authority to the local church, and power flows from it to the next level, such as association, state convention, national convention.

A distinctive element is that the authority flows from the local church to the association, the local church to the state convention, and the local church to the national convention. Always from the local church.

 

Yes.. you are wrong... :tongue3: I have always wanted to say that bout you!!!

:flower:

Seriously, I haven't seen a poll.. but the only Baptists that I know that don't believe in a universal church are IFB. (I am sure this will be blown out of the water now! :smilewinkgrin: )

I know within my denomination.. abc/usa.. we believe and teach in the Universal Church... and most SBCers I know believe in it....

And since the SBC is the biggest group of Baptists in America... I have a feeling you are wrong...

(tiny ducking)

 

Yes, you are right.. they are the same thing..

Paul wasn't a member of the Corinthian church.. He belonged to Antioch...

But he included himself when he said "we" are all baptized into one body..

Which is the universal church.
If it was just a local church, he wouldn't have said "we".. but "you"...

Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my CHURCH"... NOT churches...

Just like there is only one McDonalds but many franchises... it is so with THE Church.

 

This is one area I struggled with when I had to write my ordination paper...
I grew up believing in just Local church... we were Closed Communion because of it...

When I had to struggle with MY beliefs (not my dad's) in order to write my paper for ordination, I realized there was one church.. The Body of Christ.
And because of this.. I had to lose my belief on Closed Communion.

Just a little of my background....

 

Depends on whom you ask. If you ask me, I'd say they're not the same, since the universal church does not exist, but the bride does. One view is that the bride is mainly prospective--that it become truly the bride at the marriage supper of the Lamb, where all local churches will disappear and there will then be only one--the great general assembly.

What some call the universal church, made up of all the saved, is actually better described as the kingdom, made up of subjects of the King.

Only the local church is uniquely able to carry out the Great Commission. The universal church is uniquely useless, never having done a single thing to carry out the GC.

 

Tim I as well do in fact believe very strongly in the universal CHurch.
There is only one church and there is no salvation outside that on true Church of Christ.
It is made of up all of the elect from all times, all races and nations of the world.

It is made up of Baptists, and Presbyterians, Lutherans etc.

As for the Nicean, creed, I first heard that while attending an Orthodox Presbyterian Church and I was taken back by the term catholic at first, but you will note that is the catholic, not Catholic.
It is not referring to Rome at all.

Oh, and I also do not have a problem at all with creeds and confessions as long as they are subject to the Bible and not the other way around.

Everyone has a creed, some just write them down, other do not.

 

Tim, I do not believe in closed communion either.

I was very blessed to be able to have the Lord's supper with my Presbyterian friends when I visited yet I would not be permitted to do so in many Baptist churches.

 

Tom, I respectfully disagree.. The reason churches link up and form denominations have been to do missions...

It is truly a specially unique church that has missionaries that are supported ONLY by that church to other countries... Most Missionaries have many different churches that support them.

Actually, the only church I know of that can claim they have missionaries totally supported by their church is Annsni's church.

I know our church which is a Christ honoring church doesn't have foriegn missionaries that have came out from us.. we are too small.. but we support our denominations missionaries.. plus a certain lovable missionary to Japan! :smilewinkgrin:

So calling the universal church useless is saying that all of us small churches that support missionaries are not being used by God.

Or am I reading too much into your statement?

 

Hey Tim

I dont have to tell you that you are one of my most beloved people on BB, and I consider you a brother no matter what, and you helped me through one of the toughest times of my life so dont be offended by my take on this subject, cause i still love you and hope someday I can pass on the love that you gave to me and my family when we were in need.

OK....I am IFB and I do believe that my loyalty and christian commitment is to the local church first. I dont believe that I am a member of the church you pastor, but I do consider us both a member of the kingdom of God.

the "Universal Church" as we humans define it is a very vague thing. For instance, are Mormons part of it? Or Universalists? Or Jehovah's Witness?

Some of the members of my local church are not even members of the "kingdom of God" because they are not born again. Yeah, I said it, like it or not, lots of our local church members are not even Christians.

That being said, I do realize that sometimes in the Bible, it speaks of the "church" as the total of all believers in Christ, but sometimes Paul, especially, is speaking to the local assembly, or local church. I have a hard time in just reading it and immediately understanding it in every verse, but I have learned to research it and find out just who the verse is speaking to.

So yes, we are all members of the kingdom of God, and the universal church, (my pastor refers to it as the catholic church) but while we are here on Earth we only answer to the local assemby that we are members of.

If I commit an offense that deserves church discipline, my pastor would consult the deacons of my local church for guidance, and not any other church.

So. we must be careful when we say that IFB folks dont recognise other churches as "the church"....it depends on what context we are speaking of.

I still love you Tim:godisgood:

AJ

If we were all members of the same church, then I could just go and vote for changes in whatever church I wanted to attend that week.....btw, my local church does practice open communion...and we are IFB.....

 

AJ.. .friend, Brother....

LOL...

OK>.. I didn't mean to say ALL IFBs believe in local only.. but IN MY LIFE.. around where I grew up... IF someone said there was no universal church.. .you could bet they were IFB...

ABCGrad is an IFB.. and she has said on this thread she believes in the Universal church...

Sorry I wasn't clear...
I too.. feel that the local church is important... I mean.. I would like for you to come visit our church sometime.. BTW, YOU have an open invitation in my pulpit to share what God has done for you over the last few months... But if you ever come.. .I wouldn't want your tithes... they belong to YOUR local church.

So yes.. .I think I agree with you 100%.

It could be terminology also.. some say "universal"... some "kingdom"... but here is how I define what I call "universal".. and the Nicene creed calls "catholic"... notice small "c" not "C"

Universal church = all the truly born again believers since Jesus till Jesus comes to receive us home.. where we will be gathered together.... in one place and time. The Ecclesia of all time.

I know Tom would call this the Kingdom... ( I think he would) .. but we are actually talking about the same thing... just calling it something different.

So to reiterate.. I know not all IFBs believe in local church only.. just the ones I grew up with.. a big portion of them in the Charleston WV area.

OH.. and right back at you with the love!

 

The church must be understood in two senses. The universal church, sometimes called the invisible church, consists of all believers in this present age. This body, once completed, will be joined with Christ as His bride. While it has not yet "assembled" there are no grounds to deny it's existence on the basis of semantics in light of clear Scriptural teaching on the matter. The local church is the method which was ordained by Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit to serve in fulfilling the specifics of the commission given in Matthew chapter twenty eight and Acts chapter one. A local church assembles for exhortation and edification and scatters for evangelism – individual believers sharing their faith with all who are touched by their life and witness.

Ordained in an IFB church, this was one of several “sticky” points in the examination. The matter of Paul viewing himself as a member of the same body as the Corinthians was a key passage, but even here some IFB’s hold an interpretation that favors their “non-universal” church position. The Landmark position is even more unusual. It is safe to say that a good many IFB churches, particularly of the BBF variety, would strongly oppose the term universal church. Not sure where the GARBC comes down on this one, but believe they are OK with the idea of a universal body of all believers, i.e. the body of Christ.

In regard to the Creed in general, its purpose was to clarify both the deity of the Lord Jesus as well as to state a belief in His literal incarnation and eternal existence.

I do have a problem with the Apostles Creed which states that “He [Jesus] descended into hell”. Maybe that should be a separate post. Seems like I remember some discussion about that several years back before Matthew got sick.

Oh, BTW, open communion was another one of the “sticky” points as was the J. Comma.

 

Is it safe to assume that if you are a local church only person.. chances are you will be "closed communion"?.. I mean I can't see a local church only person allowing others to share in communion... since it is a church ordinance.

That seems to be the trend here in this thread...

Universal... Open
Local.... Closed.

Hey, where's saggy.. she can develop a poll...

 

prolly pretty safe with that...

One local only closed only pastor asked me, "If I don't baptize your members in my church, why would I let them take communion in my church?"