If all men are drawn to God Then all men can be saved

I've had easier times untangling game controller cords than unravelling this reasoning.

Let me make this easier by inserting the differernt words right into the verse in brackets.

6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come [heko] to me; and him that comes [erchomai] to me I will in no wise cast out.

[heko: a primary verb; to arrive, i.e. be present (literally or figuratively):--come.]

[erchomai: middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set]

What you want the verse to say is "All the Father gives to me will be presented to me." But that's not what the word heko here means. It says "shall come" as in a guaranteed arrival. Here are some other examples of the same exact word, in the same exact form:

Matthew

23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,

None of the above can be interpreted to mean "brought and presented to".

Indeed, here is perhaps the best argument of all that this form of heko signifies a guarantee, because it is pitted directly against the word erchomai!

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come [erchomai] will come [heko], and will not tarry.

There you have it -- this verse uses heko to affirm that the arrival of Jesus is a guaranteed arrival -- he that shall come (erchomai) WILL come (heko), and you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

Therefore, the obvious meaning of "All the Father gives Me WILL COME to Me" is that it is undisputed that all the Father gives Jesus WILL COME to Jesus.

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Now, as to THE ONE. Your interpretation cannot stand against verse 39.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Here you have a shift from ALL to IT, and yet nothing could be more clear than the fact that Jesus loses NONE of the ALL -- IT refers to each and every one given to Jesus.

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While we're on the topic, I think the real reason for the shift between ALL and THE ONE is interesting, so please bear with me and allow me to share it, even though it has nothing to do with Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

Notice two things about the word "ALL" in verse 37. First, the Greek word for "ALL" is neuter, that is, impersonal. Second, it is in relation to what the Father decrees. The impersonal neuter implies an absolute decree.

The latter half of the verse, THE ONE, is masculine in the Greek, that is, personal. In this case, THE ONE is in relation to Jesus, through whom we have PERSONAL access to the Father.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Just keep reading on, and you'll see exactly the same relationship repeated in the next verses.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Again, all these words are in the neuter form, and they are all in relation to what the Father does.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

These words are masculine, and are in relation to a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

I'll have to search out the other uses of heko whenever I can.
But right off the bat, I notice that all of those examples of heko you gave indicate a literal "coming" through time or space. (i.e. events, such as the end "come" through time, and people, such as the Lord come through space). That's just what I was suggesting for John 6:37, moreso than simply "being presented", which was not really what I had in mind at that moment, but is also possible. When we speak of "coming" to Christ, this is for all puroses figurative. It's a spiritual "coming", not physical, or in time (apparently, ercomai can be used for both, as we see in your He. ref). That is why I believe the different terms were used in that case. "Guaranteed" is moot in the latter case, because it is the present middle participle, not future. (in Heb. it's reversed).

In v.39, "lose" is active (something the person does, not something that happens to them), and is translated elsewhere as "destroy". Remember, Judas was one of these "chosen"/"given" that He was referring to (as opposed to the Pharisees who were not following Him), and Jesus did not destroy ("lose" in that sense) him, he left on his own.

 

You're getting pretty loose with your interpretation and context here. Nowhere does it say that Judas was given to Jesus by the Father. Jesus says Judas was among those Jesus chose, and we know for what purpose Judas was chosen.

To say Judas left on his own and leave it at that is to introduce an impossibility. The predictions of Judas' betrayal goes way back in the Bible, right down to the payoff amount and what the money was used to purchase. Given that Judas was obeying his own will, then to say that Judas CHOSE to betray Jesus is academically correct.

But to suggest Judas could have done anything BUT betray Jesus, and do so exactly as it God had foretold it would be done, is impossible. And since Jesus CHOSE Judas knowing in advance that Judas would be the one to betray him, one could not possibly say that Jesus lost Judas -- Jesus chose him for the very purpose he served, and Judas served that purpose according to God's will. And praise God for that, or we would have no redemption.

 

Yes, your interpretation COULD and does mean that Jesus DID "lose" him --in the Greek meaning of the word I pointed out above -- destroy, cast off.

Jsesus caould have used any of the wicked, already hardened Jews (many guilty of the unpardonable sin He warnedabout) to accomplish this purpose, with the details of the price, etc. He does not single out people to do wickedly and then die eternally. Such would be a robot, or at best, the hypothetical "created wicked" people you spoke of on the other thread, but which you seem to deny.

Jesus spoke of two classes: those given, and those not given. The definition were those who "came" to Him (were with Him physically) and those who didn't. And your side always uses "I have chosen", and "the Father has given" synonymously, so Judas would have been considered apart of the former class at that time.

 

God created some to be chosen as vessels of wrath.
throughout the bible, God pulls out of mankinds history his little reminders of their presence

we seem to forget why God even made the vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.

heres a reminder...

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Luk 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided [him], saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

I also added the next verse. seems that some didnt understand the title and office of Christ then either. Apparently there ears were stopped up as they were listening.."father, forgive them for they know not what they do"....

for proof of vessels of wrath. we may look in our own congregations...

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable,unmerciful:

God makes the vessels of wrath for the day of judgement. which is that the vessels of mercy may forgive their treaspasses.
Just Like a "real" christian.
truth is the Christ spirit within man yearns for the love of the father to be given to every human born in the form of forgiving their sins some day.

we are all robots. playing to the script of a master playwrite. and we dont know what is happening until after it occurs and we are told the truth from God himself.
this is why truth is hidden. many cant see nor understand it. the majority of "christians" are chosen vessels of wrath. someday to be forgiven by "their" enemies.

Me2

 

Me2, you make some hard, chilling, but well-taken points.

 

there is most certainly a subset. It is the bride. the body of Christ. those whom the father has drawn to the son to relate in this age.

Lifted Up? are we talking about being crusified, or being "resurrected" from death abolishing its unrighteousness?

while some were drawn to this gruesome act of violence. Id rather think that the "resurrection from the dead" is the reason "all" are drawn to the Christ spirit. (if you think about it, theres nowhere else to go. eph 4:10)

while this subset called the bride is being called and joined to this christ spirit as its bride. In the next age, the bride will be representing the Christ spirit before all men drawing all men to themselves. Christ "in them"..the body.

thus the subset is initially saved and covered over. while in the age to come, all men, past present and future will be drawn to the body via the subset we are identifying as the elect. the vessels of mercy. the bride.

the christ spirit today yearns for Gods creation to be reconciled..loosing none. drawing all men means drawing all men. even if we dont see it with our physical sight in this age.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Me2

 

Enable is implicit in the text. From NKJV:

65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

The word translated "can" is "dunamai", which means ability. No one is ABLE to come to Jesus unless it is given or granted him. What is granted Him? In the context of the sentence AND the surrounding text, ABILITY.

As for "subset", I mean "subset of all mankind". If Jesus says things like...

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

There's no question here whether "all" means "all men who ever lived, lives or will live" vs. "all of whom?" Jesus says all of whom. "OF ALL He has given Me". As opposed to what? As opposed to those He has not given Jesus. There's your subset.

 

John 6 gives you everything you need to discover the answer. Jesus repeats this same concept and process at least four times, in four different ways. The first of these statements is the most obvious way to answer your question.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

All that the Father gives Jesus WILL COME to Jesus. So the Father gives the elect to Jesus before they even come to Him. Now, it should be obvious that, if we're talking about those who haven't yet come to Jesus, we're talking about pre-salvation. But if that's not obvious enough, the follow up verses should be:

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Same subject, same condition (Father giving the elect to the Son), different way of putting the outcome -- Jesus will not only lose NONE of those who are given, but Jesus will also guarantee that He will raise it (neuter to signify totality in the decree) up at the last day. This is repeated once again in a more personal manner...

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him (masculine to signify personal relationship in the process) up at the last day."

Now, you can take verse 40 out of context, ignore the other verses, and make it sound like we're talking about the condition of belief. Then you have to ADD to that out-of-context interpretation the presumption (it's not in the text) that one must believe of their own free will.

If you do so, you not only corrupt the text, you contradict the parallel verses. Verse 40 is just a repetition of verse 39. Verse 39 is from the perspective of God, representing totality of decree (God gives him EVERYTHING), and verse 40 is from the perspective of our personal relationship with the Son (of whom God gives Jesus, none of US PERSONALLY are lost).

Verse 39 GUARANTEES that Jesus will LOSE NONE of whom the Father gives Him. Verse 40, saying the same thing, adds the PROCESS that takes place when the Father gives the elect to Him -- they will see the Son and believe, and have everlasting life so that Jesus will raise them up at the last day. But if verse 39 is true (and it's right there in black and white - or red and white depending on your Bible), then Jesus will lose NOTHING/NOBODY of those given to Him. Therefore EVERYONE who is given will see the Son and believe.

Finally, to end all argument, Jesus explains once again in the simplest terms that it is the Father who decides who comes to Jesus...

65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Lest anyone argue about what "no one" means, the Greek word is "oudeis", which means...

3762 oudeis {oo-dice'} including feminine oudemia {oo-dem-ee'-ah} and neuter ouden {oo-den'}

AV - no man 94, nothing 68, none 27, no 24, any man 3, any 3, man 2, neither any man 2

It is clear from this verse that ABSOLUTELY NOBODY WITHOUT EXCEPTION is ABLE to come to Jesus unless it is GRANTED to him to do so by the Father.

 

It is not equally true that in Jn 12:32 that all men will be drawn to Christ. The word "men" does not appear in that verse. He says "all". "All of whom?" is a question left open to the interpreter.

I've quoted from Deut 29, 30, 31, and 32 to prove that God knew this was impossible. I've pointed out how the verse is couched in "witnesses AGAINST YOU", to show that God says this because He knows they will choose death rather than life. But if none of that can possibly convince you, then let's look at the verse one more time:

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

Prove this is a command in which we have the innate ability to comply by doing it! Read ALL of Deuteronomy, Exodus and Leviticus ALL THAT GOD HAS SET BEFORE YOU IN THESE BOOKS, and use you r OWN FREE WILL to obey the whole law so that you will choose life and blessings.

I repeat -- choose to do it ALL WITH YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Let me know when you've got it licked, and I'll admit that what God is saying here in Deut 30 is that we are able to choose to comply of our own free will.

This is such an inane point. I've explained the faulty "whosoever" premise more times than I can stand.

If, instead, you're referring to "God so loved the world", well, I love the world, too. I hate mosquitoes, though. I'm not very fond of flies, either.

 

Okay, here's one.

Exodus 32:24
And I said to them, "Whoever has any gold, let them break it off.' So they gave it to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf came out."

Right. Anyone who has any gold. Clearly there were people at this time who had no gold and to whom gold was not freel available. But I'm sure they ran around screaming "Hey, give us some of your gold! After all, "whoever has any gold" MUST mean you are offering it to everyone freely to take of our own free will, and all we are required to do is, of our own free will, receive it!

No, it's not. Even in this verse, it tells you "all of whom" -- all who are heavy laden. That does not encompass everyone who ever lived, lives or will live. It addresses specifically those who are heavy laden.

So here's the solution to the "all" problem. Whenever you see it, ask yourself, "all of whom?" If the answer isn't in the verse itself, look at the context of the verse. Such as 2 Peter 3:9 -- the context is "beloved", ALL OF THE BELOVED.

Anyway, I'm pooped going over the same material again and again. That's enough for now.