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If election is unconditional why would it be more difficult for the rich to be saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Aug 6, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I didn't predict you would run, I predicted you would not be able to support your accusation and apparently I'm right.

    Huh, you mean the twist that I'm an Arminian and disagree with Calvinists on certain points of doctrine, but not others? Shocking.
    The motive to defend my views and debate yours on a forum created for that purpose. Again, quite shocking. I really should be ashamed of myself. :rolleyes:

    If you don't have evidence to back up your accusation that I believe man initiates salvation then I have a suggestion, DON'T MAKE THE ACCUSATION.

    You claimed the premise of the argument was that I believe man initiates salvation, so what else am I to conclude when in fact I've NEVER believed such a thing, and the argument of the OP actually presumes that Calvinism is true? Baffling...

    It's fine to argue against the Arminian take on this passage all you want, but it doesn't address the question posed in the OP as to why Jesus said it was hard for a rich man. This is called the "you too fallacy," whereby the debater points to problems he sees with the opponents views rather than dealing with the problem being presented to him about his own view.

    Ok, so your official answer is that God was meaning only to say that the rich were not preferred but that they could be saved (through the normal mechanics as proposed by Calvinists). So, why didn't he just say, "the rich are not preferred, instead of saying its easier for the camel to go through the eye of the needle than for the rich to enter the kingdom?" Was it just hyperbole? Was he just overstating his case for effect? Is that the answer I'm hearing? I'm trying to help you out here...

    Excuse my rudeness, but "DUH." Just as it is pretty clear you, or Aaron or one of the other Calvinists here are not going to take the Arminian side. The POINT was to point out that in mainstream circles some of the issues aren't POINTS OF CONTENTION between Arms and Cals, but HERE they are. In my view, they are UNNECESSARY points of contention, because as MacArthur and others point out, there is a tendency with some reformers to teach that God doesn't really love everyone or desire all to be saved...a view that Calvin himself rejected.

    If not, then are you in support of Kyredneck's view regarding the "entering of the kingdom" not being a reference to salvation, because that seems to be the only way to claim this is not "in a salvific sense," right?

    No. It means they will have a more difficult time letting go and trusting God when confronted with the Gospel appeal, as I explained.
     
    #161 Skandelon, Aug 10, 2011
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  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    skandelon, you've been thoroughly answered, your OP dismissed as error, which it is, and now all you are doing is trying to change your intentions to something other.

    This is how you work in all of your threads, replies, responses: You're proven incorrect, then you resort to strawman arguments, rabbit trails, a pretend world that "we don't understand" (a personal attack), and the mutli-colored chameleon of changing intentions.

    If this were live debate, you'd be red-faced as the platform and intention would be set and unchangeable, each of your proof-texted theologies would be handily and readily dismantled, and all of this would take place in a setting contrary to what the web allows you do do here, which is again, pretend.

    :wavey:
     
    #162 preacher4truth, Aug 10, 2011
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  3. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    The whole rest of the thread is just he-said/he-said, so I am going to leave it alone. It is no longer even close to edifying for either of us, or the readers of this board.

    About your response to my question above, you have failed to actually respond to the question. I respect that your answer is in keeping with your theological position, but the question was:

    The answers are either yes or no. I'm presuming by your response that you choose yes, because you indicate that it is now "more difficult" for them to enter the salvific encounter than it was before or without their wealth.

    That is a curious position to take, when the Scriptures indicate that we are all in the same state, without hope and save for the actions of Christ alone, damned.
     
    #163 glfredrick, Aug 10, 2011
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    #164 JesusFan, Aug 10, 2011
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  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    #165 InTheLight, Aug 10, 2011
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    #166 JesusFan, Aug 10, 2011
  7. Batt4Christ

    Batt4Christ Member
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    But if God's saving Grace is "irresistible" - then.......



     
    #167 Batt4Christ, Aug 10, 2011
  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    #168 glfredrick, Aug 10, 2011
  9. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    lol...

    Let's follow proof-text methodology throughout the entire Bible. In doing so each verse will cancel out the previous verse, undo the context at hand.

    Perhaps we should throw a dart and whichever verse we land upon will be our doctrine for the day, and such will become a providentially given verse all for the objective of dismantling Calvinism.

    All up until a real Bible student actually comes along after looking at the context for all of 12 seconds, and utterly dismantles the false interpretation of the proof-text, the shaky OP, and hence the entire premise comes crumbling down, all due to employing a proper hermeneutic, which leads to the real meaning and point of the text at hand.

    Next scene? Enter strawman. :wavey:

    - Peace
     
    #169 preacher4truth, Aug 10, 2011
  10. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Why would God's "eternal purpose" be to condemn millions to separation from him for eternity? And, you did not answer the question as to why a rich man, any rich man has more difficulty being saved than others.
     
    #170 Crabtownboy, Aug 10, 2011
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You mean the parts where I quote what you said and soundly rebut your words...yeah I'd leave that alone too if I were you. Next time you have an accusation be willing to support it.

    I agree. It stopped being so when you turned the subject onto me and my motives rather than the subject at hand.

    Did you miss the part where I said, "No. " ??????

    Wow. And you accuse me of not accepting an answer that is given?

    Having more of a hinderance to coming to Christ doesn't make you MORE of a sinner, as if God is ranking the level of the sin, it just makes it harder for the person to submit and enter. And I'm not sure what "more damned" would even mean??? Are you asking if their pain will be greater in hell or something?

    Where does it say that we are in the "same state?" My understanding is that some have grown more calloused than others depending on their choices along the journey. Yes, we all need the intervention of Christ, but it is certainly more difficult for some to enter than others in my view.
     
    #171 Skandelon, Aug 10, 2011
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    GLF, looks like I'm not the only one who thinks your reading comprehension skills are off. Don't take it personally :)
     
    #172 webdog, Aug 10, 2011
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