1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

IF evolution is true,

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Plain Old Bill, Jun 14, 2005.

  1. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    133
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes that is true. The definition of what makes one "species" distinct from another "species" has been blurred by increased human understanding of genetics. This supports evolution because it shows commonalities between what we have historically classified as different species to the extent that common ancestry is difficult to deny.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "separate DNA" since my children will have different and separate DNA from myself. Could you clarify what your criteria is for "separate DNA"?
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    As I quoted in an earlier post, scientific laws originate from scientific observation. Scientific laws do often "evolve" in that our descriptions of them change in light of new evidence.

    Of course, the physical laws that govern the universe do not change. But our descriptions of them in the form of scientific laws do.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Where does the evolutionist say those physical laws originate.
     
  3. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    133
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Which evolutionist?
     
  4. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    133
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I think you are asking me this question but I'm not too sure.

    If you are, then my answer is obviously the God who created the universe, Elohim.
     
  5. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That simply isn't true no matter who says it. Evolution "demands" a natural cause and denies a supernatural cause for everything that exists.

    The theory's working premise is that the supernatural does not exist in a way that can effect the natural.

    That is a statement on God, the Bible, etc. The statement is that they cannot be true because they record something and depend on things that are supernatural.
     
  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    8,652
    Likes Received:
    836
    Faith:
    Baptist
    OldReg: the presumption as stated in the Opening Post was "IF evolution is true".

    If evolution is true you would still call God blind and most cruel?
    Would you turn down salvation through Jesus Christ because you couldn't reconsile how He created?

    I WILL REPEAT MYSELF:
    IF evolution is true:
    the Scriptures would still be true, our way of interpreting it would change.


    Rob
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Deacon

    The doctrine of evolution is that all that exists came, through time and chance, from nothing. Therefore, if evolution were true there would be no need for God.
     
  8. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    2,782
    Likes Received:
    0
    a) Evolution does not have doctrines. That is for religions.

    b) Evolution does not deny that things other than natural can cause changes; for example, its perfectly reasonable to believe men can genetically alter a species.

    c) Evolution does not deny God; it simply studies what God has done on a second hand basis through natural means.
     
  9. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    133
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Evolution cannot deny the supernatural. The entire field of science cannot deny the supernatural. The supernatural is beyond the scope of science which deals with the natural. Those who try to make science say something about the supernatural are abusing science.

    I've never seen any definition of evolution from someone who supports evolution that requires this premise. Please cite a source.
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    8,652
    Likes Received:
    836
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Given your definition NO ONE on the board would disagree with your conclusions...but I didn't believe that was the point of the opening post. Am I wrong???

    The issues are not as black and white as you imply.
    There are plenty of believers that accept the premise of evolution without denying the existence of God. Recognize them as legitimate brothers and learn how they reconcile their beliefs with the Scriptures, when you do, you will come a long way towards understanding Christian unity amidst diversity.

    Rob
     
  11. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Christian unity amidst diversity: Jesus died as an atonement for sin; now let's beatify His mother and make her a co-redeemer.

    The biggest problem I have with evolution is that it does not account for SIN and the fact that the world is permeated with SIN. SIN is why our minds are so befuddled when it comes to spiritual matters.

    Evolution does not account for the revelation that God took the dirt, made a man, and breathed in him, making him a living soul.

    The God of Creation is not a random God.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  12. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    133
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Evolution does not say anything one way or another about sin. Sin is a theological concept. Evolution is a biological one.

    Trying to make evolution say something about sin is beyond the scope of the theory.

    Agreed. God is not a random God. But there is randomness in his creation. When you flip a coin, is God determining the outcome to have more heads than tails or is it random? Regardless, it is moot since evolution is not a random process.

     
  13. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes it does... it simply doesn't call them doctrines.

    And it is unreasonable to believe that a being as powerful as God could have created the natural order in a very short time period? It is unreasonable to look at scientific data and recognize that elements of design point to a designer as opposed to a natural process?

    Evolutionists are adamently opposed to any other option being treated with critical respect. If they were as confident in the "truth" of evolution as they claim then they should have no objection whatsoever to critical review of the theory in classrooms or even the presentation of alternatives.... but they are totally opposed in a manner that aligns more with religious fanaticism than intellectual freedom/integrity/pursuit of truth.

    Evolution doesn't deny God? Then why is its fundamental premise that everything must have a NATURAL CAUSE? BTW, that would include whatever "prime cause" it will allow to be theorized and suggested as scientific.

    [ June 15, 2005, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]
     
  14. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Evolution cannot deny the supernatural. The entire field of science cannot deny the supernatural. The supernatural is beyond the scope of science which deals with the natural. Those who try to make science say something about the supernatural are abusing science.</font>[/QUOTE] When "science" has as its operating philosophy that everything must have a natural cause, it is making a statement about the supernatural. That is unavoidably apparent.

    I've never seen any definition of evolution from someone who supports evolution that requires this premise. Please cite a source. </font>[/QUOTE]Why are evolutionists opposed to creation science and ID being taught comparatively with evolution? Why are they opposed to teachers having the freedom to point out logical and scientific flaws in evolutionary theory?

    Are you telling me that you have never seen an evolutionist protest when someone invokes the Creator to explain something? Are you telling me that evolutionists approach evidence open to the idea that the supernatural as evidenced by design and complexity was the source rather than a natural process? Are you telling me that evolutionists do not assume evolution by natural process in every study of any natural phenomenon?

    You don't need a quote. All you have to do is witness the way they demand that the philosophical presumption of naturalism must govern all discovery and study in science.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    There are some people on this forum who support evolution yet do not understand what evolution teaches. I have stated that evolution is an atheist philosophy, perhaps religion would be a better word since it takes blind faith to believe in evolution.

    The atheist tells us that there is no God, that everything that exists is the result of time and chance. What does the evolutionist who is an atheist tell us about the existence of God or for that matter intelligent design as some evolutionists fall back on? The following is an excerpt from a debate between evolutionist William B. Provine and creationist Phillip E. Johnson at Stanford University, April 30, 1994 and proves that evolution is the religion of atheists. The full debate can be read at:

    http://www.arn.org/docs/orpages/or161/161main.htm

    "ON THE THEORY OF INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED ADAPTATIONS, THE INTELLIGENT DESIGNER CLEARLY IS VERY SHORT-SIGHTED INDEED. VIRTUALLY ALL OF HIS CREATIONS ARE EXTINCT. ALL THE SPECIES ON EARTH ARE GOING TO BE GONE IN ONE BILLION YEARS, AND THE SAD THING ABOUT THAT IS THAT LIFE HAS BEEN AROUND FOR THREE AND ONE-HALF BILLION YEARS ALREADY, SO IT'S ONLY GOT A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. PHIL AND I HAVE ALREADY LIVED MORE THAN HALF OF OUR LIVES. LIFE ON EARTH FACES THE SAME DISMAL PROSPECT.

    WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE SURPRISED, BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE COMPLETELY DEAD. NOW IF FIND MYSELF AWARE AFTER I'M DEAD, I'M GOING TO BE REALLY SURPRISED! BUT AT LEAST I'M GOING TO GO TO HELL, WHERE I WON'T HAVE ALL OF THOSE GRINNING PREACHERS FROM SUNDAY MORNING LISTENING.

    LET ME SUMMARIZE MY VIEWS ON WHAT MODERN EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY TELLS US LOUD AND CLEAR -- AND THESE ARE BASICALLY DARWIN'S VIEWS. THERE ARE NO GODS, NO PURPOSES, AND NO GOAL-DIRECTED FORCES OF ANY KIND. THERE IS NO LIFE AFTER DEATH. WHEN I DIE, I AM ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT I AM GOING TO BE DEAD. THAT'S THE END OF ME. THERE IS NO ULTIMATE FOUNDATION FOR ETHICS, NO ULTIMATE MEANING IN LIFE, AND NO FREE WILL FOR HUMANS, EITHER. WHAT AN UNINTELLIGIBLE IDEA.

    CHRISTIAN HUMANISM HAS A GREAT DEAL GOING FOR IT. IT'S WARM AND KINDLY IN MANY WAYS. THAT'S THE GOOD PART. THE BAD PART IS THAT YOU HAVE TO SUSPEND YOUR RATIONAL MIND. THAT PART IS REALLY NASTY. ATHEISTIC HUMANISM HAS THE ADVANTAGE OF FITTING NATURAL MINDS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD, BUT THE DISADVANTAGE OF VERY LITTLE CULTURAL HERITAGE -- AND THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM.

    SO THE QUESTION IS, CAN ATHEISTIC HUMANISM OFFER US VERY MUCH? SURE. IT CAN GIVE YOU INTELLECTUAL SATISFACTION. I'M A HECK OF A LOT MORE INTELLECTUALLY SATISFIED NOW THAT I DON'T HAVE TO CLING TO THE FAIRY TALE THAT I BELIEVED WHEN I WAS A KID. LIFE MAY HAVE NO ULTIMATE MEANING, BUT I SURE THINK IT CAN HAVE LOTS OF PROXIMATE MEANING. FREE WILL IS NOT HARD TO GIVE UP, BECAUSE IT'S A HORRIBLY DESTRUCTIVE IDEA TO OUR SOCIETY. FREE WILL IS WHAT WE USE AS AN EXCUSE TO TREAT PEOPLE LIKE PIECES OF CRAP WHEN THEY DO SOMETHING WRONG IN OUR SOCIETY. WE SAY TO THE PERSON, "YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG OUT OF YOUR FREE WILL, AND THEREFORE WE HAVE THE JUSTIFICATION FOR REVENGE ALL OVER YOUR BEHIND." WE PUT PEOPLE IN PRISON, TURNING THEM INTO LOUSIER INDIVIDUALS THAN THEY EVER WERE. THIS HORRIBLE SYSTEM IS BASED UPON THIS IDEA OF FREE WILL.

    SINCE WE KNOW THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO LIVE AFTER WE DIE, THERE IS NO REWARD FOR SUFFERING IN THIS WORLD. YOU LIVE AND YOU DIE. I'VE SEEN BUMPER STICKERS (VERY SEXIST ONES, ACTUALLY) THAT SAY "LIFE'S A BITCH, AND THEN YOU DIE." WELL, WHATEVER LIFE IS, YOU'RE GOING TO DIE. SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE THINGS BETTER FOR YOURSELF OR FOR THOSE YOU CARE ABOUT, YOU HAD BETTER BECOME AN ACTIVIST WHILE YOU'RE STILL ALIVE.
    "

    Additional information showing that evolution is an atheist philosophy is presented on the following site:

    http://www.tufts.edu/as/wright_center/cosmic_evolution/docs/fr_1/fr_1_site_summary.html
     
  16. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How can anyone look through a microscope or a telescope and come to the conclusion: there is no God? Only God can call them out of darkness--and He has. Atheism is curable--Jesus is the cure.

    How do theistic-evolutionists understand Jesus being God--in the flesh? How does that sort of concept evolve? I seldom hear them refer to Jesus--the Lord, Saviour and Master of the universe.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  17. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    133
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    All Christian theistic evolutions believe that Jesus is God incarnate.
     
  18. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Likes Received:
    133
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Is it unreasonable to believe that a being as powerful as God could make all of mankind sinless? Of course not. Just because God didn't choose to act a certain way, doesn't mean he is incapable of it.

    I will critically read and respect those who put the effort into presenting legitimate alternative theories. So far I'm half way through Behe's Darwin's Black Box which is the principle book describing Intelligent Design Theory.

    The philosophy is nothing new to me since as a theistic evolutionist, I always implied a designer. The scientific ideas Behe uses to present it are new, complicated, and so far, unconvincing.

    As the husband of a high school science teacher, I know that it is difficult enough getting through the stuff that has been accepted for centuries in the scientific community without getting into all the latest pop-science that is out there.

    It isn't a fundamental premise of evolution that everything must have a natural cause. But the natural ones are the ones science is interested and capable of studying.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Paul aptly describes the so-called theistic evolutionists [I say so-called because theistic evolution is an oxymoron.] in his letter to Timothy:

    2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
     
  20. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    7,133
    Likes Received:
    670
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nice stutter-step, but it doesn't address the question!

    "--all the latest pop-science--" So you're saying that Genesis is simply "pop-science"?
     
Loading...