If faith is predestined and cause by God, then answer me this.....

[Calminian]

.....why must it then be credited as righteousness?

Take a look at the following passages.

Gen. 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Rom. 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.a 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Rom. 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Rom. 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 4:11.....So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom. 4:21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.​

This is a strong theme in Paul's writings. God credits faith as righteousness. This seems to preclude the idea that faith as any merit whatsoever. Thus, it seems pointless for God to predestine and cause something that is inadequate to save. Faith, in and of itself, does not acquire salvation. It cannot, according to Paul. It must be credited as righteousness by God. So, even if the believer makes the choice to believe, he cannot take any credit for his salvation, as belief, in and of itself, gains him nothing. He is still just as undeserving as the unbeliever, and God is not obligated to save believers or unbelievers. It's still 100% God's doing and 100% God's choice.

 

[Reynolds]

If God had made it absolutely clear in Scripture, we would have one less thing to fight about.

 

[Reformed1689]

He is still just as undeserving as the unbeliever, and God is not obligated to save believers or unbelievers. It's still 100% God's doing and 100% God's choice.

That's why it is called grace.

 

[Dave G]

.....why must it then be credited as righteousness?

Think about it...something God gives a man is credited to that man as righteousness.

Talk about an absolutely mind boggling way to abase a person and make them realize that everything they have...even the faith in Jesus Christ that sustains them through this life...comes from God ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ).

This is a strong theme in Paul's writings. God credits faith as righteousness. This seems to preclude the idea that faith as any merit whatsoever.

To me, that is precisely the point...
Faith has no merit whatseover.

It is the evidence of God's favor ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

Thus, it seems pointless for God to predestine and cause something that is inadequate to save.

It may seem pointless to some, but to me it is fully within God's character of His ways being far and away above our ways as men.

In addition, God is the one who saves...faith does not save, although some would quote Mark 10:52, Luke 7:50 and Luke 18:42 in support of that idea.
The reality of it is, God gives the gift of faith and then turns right around and credits, as righteousness, the very thing that He gave us as a gift.

It amazes me every time I think about it.

Faith, in and of itself, does not acquire salvation. It cannot, according to Paul.

I agree.

So, even if the believer makes the choice to believe, he cannot take any credit for his salvation, as belief, in and of itself, gains him nothing.

We as men are not willing to make that choice.
But, even if we could, salvation is still a gift given by God.

If it were something that could be earned by an act, then it would no longer be a gift.
But there are plenty of people who think that belief in Jesus Christ gains them God's favor...

It doesn't.
As I see it, belief comes all the way back around to being a work of God ( John 6:29 ), and while we as His children believe on Him, if He would not have changed our hearts, none of the evidence would have ever materialized in us.

Belief on Jesus Christ from the heart is another of the many evidences of a person being found in the favor of God.

He is still just as undeserving as the unbeliever, and God is not obligated to save believers or unbelievers. It's still 100% God's doing and 100% God's choice.

Again I agree.
The believer and the unbeliever are equally undeserving...but I think many who read this would find fault with that idea.
"I did what God required!", they might say.

That is not salvation by grace.

That's why it is called grace.

Exactly.

 

[Calminian]

Think about it...something God gives a man is credited to that man as righteousness.

Talk about an absolutely mind boggling way to abase a person and make them realize that everything they have...even the faith in Jesus Christ that sustains them through this life...comes from God ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ).

To me, that is precisely the point...
Faith has no merit whatseover.

It is the evidence of God's favor ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

It may seem pointless to some, but to me it is fully within God's character of His ways being far and away above our ways as men.

In addition, God is the one who saves...faith does not save, although some would quote Mark 10:52, Luke 7:50 and Luke 18:42 in support of that idea.
The reality of it is, God gives the gift of faith and then turns right around and credits, as righteousness, the very thing that He gave us as a gift.

It amazes me every time I think about it.

I agree.

We as men are not willing to make that choice.
But, even if we could, salvation is still a gift given by God.

If it were something that could be earned by an act, then it would no longer be a gift.
But there are plenty of people who think that belief in Jesus Christ gains them God's favor...

It doesn't.
As I see it, belief comes all the way back around to being a work of God ( John 6:29 ), and while we as His children believe on Him, if He would not have changed our hearts, none of the evidence would have ever materialized in us.

Belief on Jesus Christ from the heart is another of the many evidences of a person being found in the favor of God.

Again I agree.
The believer and the unbeliever are equally undeserving...but I think many who read this would find fault with that idea.
"I did what God required!", they might say.

That is not salvation by grace.

Exactly.

Thanks, that's a lot to digest. For me, it makes sense if faith is in some sense, at least in part, a choice of man. Man choses to believe, but then it's up to God to reckon that faith, making salvation 100% of God.

 

[Dave G]

Man choses to believe, but then it's up to God to reckon that faith, making salvation 100% of God.

I once believed that.

But then after reading Scripture for a long while and carefully comparing things, I saw that if God relies on something that a man could do, that would not make salvation 100% of God...but some percentage less than 100.

If God acts, then waits for us to re-act ( or bases His choice on our choice ), that is not the same as if God acts and then the person re-acts.

Which one is truly 100% of God?


May God remind you of His blessings each and every day.

 

[Reformed1689]

Thanks, that's a lot to digest. For me, it makes sense if faith is in some sense, at least in part, a choice of man. Man choses to believe, but then it's up to God to reckon that faith, making salvation 100% of God.

No, that still puts salvation in the hands of man and not 100% God.

 

[Calminian]

...But then after reading Scripture for a long while and carefully comparing things, I saw that if God relies on something that a man could do, that would not make salvation 100% of God...but some percentage less than 100.

If you have a false view of faith, yes, that would be a problem. If you believe faith is a work, or even if faith is something that directly causes salvation, yes, I can see why you came to that conclusion. I struggled with that as well, until I took a second look.

 

[Calminian]

No, that still puts salvation in the hands of man and not 100% God.

If you have a false view of faith, yes it does. I think this is where the disagreement lies. You believe faith is a work and directly causes salvation. I do not.

 

[Reformed1689]

If you have a false view of faith, yes it does. I think this is where the disagreement lies. You believe faith is a work and directly causes salvation. I do not.

No I don't believe biblical faith is a work. There is a difference. Man initiated faith is a work.

 

[Calminian]

No I don't believe biblical faith is a work. There is a difference. Man initiated faith is a work.

Which is exactly where our disagreement lies. You believe faith, in and of itself, is meritorious. Therefore, if is from man, it is a work. I cannot find any biblical justification for this view, and it's no wonder, as it's 100% theologically derived.

Paul disagrees. He continually contrasted faith and works. This is a really easy one to refute.

 

[Particular]

Which is exactly where our disagreement lies. You believe faith, in and of itself, is meritorious. Therefore, if is from man, it is a work. I cannot find any biblical justification for this view, and it's no wonder, as it's 100% theologically derived.

Paul disagrees. He continually contrasted faith and works. This is a really easy one to refute.

Faith and works are not in contrast. Faith causes works. Or works are the effect of faith, whichever way you want to look at it.
So, faith without works is obviously dead. It is not faith. A person can claim faith, but if no work is exhibited, then faith does not exist in that person.
Faith cannot not work. It is a very part of the gift, that faith will be active and working.
People can do many philanthropic works for many people, but that doesn't mean that faith caused them to do the work. Pride can cause people to do many philanthropic works for people.

 

[Calminian]

Faith and works are not in contrast. Faith causes works. Or works are the effect of faith, whichever way you want to look at it.

Yes, they are in contrast (faith is not works), and yes, works are the natural fruit of faith. So you're half right.

 

[Particular]

Yes, they are in contrast (faith is not works), and yes, works are the natural fruit of faith. So you're half right.

I am sorry, but who has said faith is anything, but a gift that by its very nature generates good works?

 

[Reformed1689]

I am sorry, but who has said faith is anything, but a gift that by its very nature generates good works?

Exactly. They keep coming with straw man arguments.

 

[Dave G]

If you have a false view of faith, yes, that would be a problem. If you believe faith is a work, or even if faith is something that directly causes salvation, yes, I can see why you came to that conclusion. I struggled with that as well, until I took a second look.

Faith itself is not meritorious, and it cannot directly ( or even indirectly ) "cause" salvation, since it is a gift from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) and not "hardwired" into us as men.

Therefore, if is from man, it is a work.

Agreed.

True, godly faith in Christ as Saviour and Deliverer is not a work of men, neither can it be, since it originated and came forth from Jesus Christ, it's Author and Finisher ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It is exactly the opposite of keeping the Law, and cannot be possessed apart from it being given to someone.
Believers rest in His finished work on the cross for them, by that faith.


With that said, your thread question was this:

" If faith is predestined and cause by God, then answer me this....."


As I understand Scripture describing, faith is not predestined, but it is "caused" within a person of God's choosing and goes right along with the new birth.

Everything that accompanies the gift of eternal life, including faith, are gifts given to those whom the Lord, in His grace and mercy, have saved from His wrath and for Himself and made born again.
True faith is also a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and cannot be present in someone who is not indwelt by Him.
Only the saved can have true faith, as it is said to be the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ).

These saved individuals are foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ) by God, who believe on His Son because it was given to them to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Their faith is a spiritual benefit of a heart to heart relationship with their Saviour, Jesus Christ...
It is not, nor will it ever be, the means to attaining that relationship.

It is the evidence of the believer's salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ), and was authored ( created ) and finished ( perfected ) by Him and Him alone.
Several passages describe it as the faith "of" Christ...that is, "by" or "from" Him...Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22 are but some of those passages.

So, even though it originated and came forth from Him to His sheep, faith itself is not what was predestined, but the individual was predestined, conformed to the image of God's dear Son, in the spiritual sense.
Vessels of mercy, afore ( before ) prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-24 ).


True faith "carries" the blood-bought believer through all of their trials and tribulations, and it never leaves them, just as His Spirit will never leave them ( Ephesians 1:13-14, Hebrews 13:5 ).
Those that do not have God-given and true faith, fail at some point during their time after "believing" the Gospel and fall away...back into the world and its ways.
That failure to endure those trials and tribulations, failing to hold on through thick and thin, is what proves that "tares" were not really saved to begin with.



Apologies for seeming to wander, but many who view "saving faith" as something other than works, tend not to see where it actually comes from:
Outside of sinful men and their desires, and directly from God.

All men do not have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), as it was ( and is ) delivered to the saints, and the saints alone ( Jude 1:3 ).
It isn't something that a person can "work up", neither is it something that all men will ever "have the chance" at gaining.

Case-in-point:

Just because a person hears God's word, does not guarantee that they will ever "hear" His words deep down in their hearts, since there is a "supernatural" component that must be present for His words to actually do their work...His Spirit.
Only someone that is "of God" will ever "hear" ( John 8:47 ), and only someone who has been given "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 and many others ) will ever be able to hear and understand His words, spiritually;
One must have their understanding opened by God in order to do so ( Luke 24:45 ).
One must have their heart opened, so that they "attend" ( listen intently to, with the heart and mind ) the things spoken of in His word ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
"Natural" men ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), who have not been born from above, will never be able or willing to receive that which they are incapable of receiving and discerning.

In other words, persistent resistance to His words is a mark of the natural man, not the child of God.
That is what marked the difference between Christ's disciples, and most of the Jews who followed Jesus around and eventually left Him in passages like John 6.


Back to faith:

Like salvation, faith is a gift... as are all of God's heavenly gifts, and apart from God, a man can have nothing ( John 3:27 ).
Only He can give someone true faith, and He will only give it to one of His elect.

This is my last reply in this thread.



I wish you well, and may God bless you, sir.

 

[Calminian]

Faith itself is not meritorious, and it cannot directly ( or even indirectly ) "cause" salvation, since it is a gift from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) and not "hardwired" into us as men....

Staying focused, if faith is 100% caused by God, why does God then need to "reckon" it as righteousness? Why would God give an inadequate gift that needed to be "counted" as righteousness?

 

[Calminian]

I am sorry, but who has said faith is anything, but a gift that by its very nature generates good works?

You said faith and works are not in contrast. Yes, they are.

Rom. 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.​

 

[Reformed1689]

Staying focused, if faith is 100% caused by God, why does God then need to "reckon" it as righteousness? Why would God give an inadequate gift that needed to be "counted" as righteousness?

First, what do you tihnk it means to reckon something?

 

[Calminian]

First, what do you tihnk it means to reckon something?

To be counted or accounted as something. It means it's not of you or something you accomplished. It was given.

What do you think it means?