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If...Then...Else

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by thegospelgeek, Feb 10, 2009.

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  1. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    My question stems from the third chapter of the book of Daniel. When the three Hebrews addressed the King in verses 17 and 18. Were they saying;

    If you throw us in the fire God will deliver us, and if you don't throw us into the fire we will not bow to worship you?

    or are they saying

    If you throw us into the fire God can deliver us, but if he does not deliver us we will not worship you?


    I have always thought that the IF statement went with God delivering them but my Brother In-law said he thinks it goes with being thrown into the fire. After going back and reading the verses, I not 100% convienced either way. Which is correct and why?

    I'm not sure which forum this belongs in so if a Mod want's to move it, go ahead.
     
    #1 thegospelgeek, Feb 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2009
  2. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76 Well-Known Member
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    What does the "it" refer to?
     
    #2 Jkdbuck76, Feb 10, 2009
  3. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    That is the $1,000,000 dollar question. With "it" being a pronoun does it reference the event most previously stated of does it reference the same event as the previous use of "it".

    I'm an engineer not a linguist so bear with me. Is the statement;

    IF (throw in fire) Then
    IF NOT( God delivers) then
    "we will not bow"
    End If
    End If


    or is it

    IF (throw in fire) Then
    God delivers
    Else
    "we will not bow"
    End If

    Either is logically correct. But as I stated I am not a linguist so i am asking are both linguistically correct and why?
     
    #3 thegospelgeek, Feb 10, 2009
  4. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Try the simplest meaning:

    Regardless of which happens, you will not be worshipped, and I will be in God's hands.

    Hebrew of the day put into simple English of to-day.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #4 Jim1999, Feb 10, 2009
  5. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    I do not see where one meaning is simpler or more literal than the other. But there are a couple of reasons I am asking.

    First. Does one interpetation diminish the faith of these in God? Are they saying "God can deliver us" or "God will deliver us". Is there a difference between the two. WOF people like to say the later as if usingb the word can allows for a "Lack of faith" and a way out. I know the doctrine to be false, but I like to present facts not opinion.

    Second and more important to me is what is the proper way of determining the proper answer to a question of this type. Is there some rule of grammar or something in the original text that I am not aware of?
     
    #5 thegospelgeek, Feb 10, 2009
  6. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    Don't see that it makes any difference from a faith standpoint.

    As a Christian, I totally believe that God CAN deliver me from heart problems, but I also know that for whatever reason He may choose to not do so.

    My faith is in Him, not what He does re: my heart, so I see no difference in the two applications.

    Incidentally, IMNSHO, to say that it is a lack of faith should He NOT do what I want (God will deliver us) is nothing more than saying that God is my personal miracle-worker (GENIE, if you will) subject to my beck and call! (I think Job may differ with this philosophy!)

    This idea smacks of the "Name it, Claim it" gospel, which is anything BUT the Gospel.!
     
    #6 just-want-peace, Feb 10, 2009
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    How about comparing it in different English translations? That's the first thing I do when I have a question about a passage.

    I think you'll find it bears out Jim's answer above.
     
    #7 Aaron, Feb 10, 2009
  8. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    NASB
    17"If it be so, our (T)God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and (U)He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
    18"(V)But even if He does not, (W)let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

    NIV
    17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."
     
    #8 Marcia, Feb 10, 2009
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    The Hebrews had a poetic way of speaking, and this accounts for the double line...this if that, but still this. Even to-day Jews tend to speak this way in either Hebrew or Yiddish.

    I don't think their faith was questionable at all. They were telling the king that he was a loser even if he won.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #9 Jim1999, Feb 10, 2009
  10. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker New Member

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    Can the answer be both?

    I think you need to go back to verse 14.



    The king says, and remember the king liked these guys, the king says, look I’m going to give you another chance, when the music plays you be ready to worship my image. And if you don’t I am going to throw you in the furnace. What kind of God can save you from me?

    Then the Hebrew children say two things:
    1. Our God can deliver us and he will deliver us.
    2. We are not going to serve your gods or worship your image.

    I see no lack of faith. They know God would deliver them, either from death or through death and they were not going to worship the image either way.

    If you want to make a logic ladder out of it:

    If worship Yes or No
    Yes Then no furnace
    No Then furnace – The children chose NO

    If Furnace
    Then miracle Yes or No
    Yes no worship – The children continue to say NO
    No no worship – The children continue to say NO

    Does that make sense to anyone but me? They ain’t gonna worship Neb.’s image no matter what. God can save them, no doubt or lack of faith on their part there. But whether God saves or not, whether they go in the fire or not, there will be no bowing down to the image.
     
    #10 North Carolina Tentmaker, Feb 11, 2009
  11. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    NC tentmaker,

    Your logic ladder makes sense to me. That's the way I think, I tend to do these logic thinks way too often.


    Jim,
    This helps. That's the kind of info i was looking for on this thread. Not so much what they meant but how to arrive at what they meant.

    just-want-peace
    Exactly! My brother in-law is a nice guy, but watches way to many TV preachers and gets himself confused. He then comes to me with these types of things. Sometimes he listens, sometimes not. He is starting to grow some, but very slowly.
     
    #11 thegospelgeek, Feb 11, 2009
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