if total depravity is, then how are the non-elects responsible?

The Bible simply does not allow someone to say that unbelievers who die and go to hell can blame God for their fate. Scripture clearly places the responsibility for a person's eternal destiny on the person. Jesus told his enemies in John 5:40 "You are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." When he lamented over the coming destruction of Jerusalem, our Lord cried out that he "wanted to gather [his] children together" but "you were not willing." (Matthew 23:37). Paul likewise makes clear that all people are without excuse for their sin: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and God head, so that they are without excuse" (Rom.1:20)

by HIS GRACE
mike

 

we are actually assuming total depravity here, and then prove that with it, man are not really responsible for their own condemnation. thus with the assumption, the inability to have faith is included. it's total depravity the calvinists way, which include total inability. </font>[/QUOTE]What you fail to recognize is that when one uses the word TOTAL, that is ALL INCLUSIVE, meaning there is no wiggle room, no room for anything else, not even the ability to respond to outside influence or help.

Total depravity is not possible, because that which is total cannot be anything less than total. For redemption to take place there must be some amount of that which is being redeemed for redemption to be worthwhile to the redeemer.

I do not accept TOTAL "anything" to be the norm for the human experience. There simply is no example anywhere in the human experience that represents a totality. Even the Great Flood of Noah's day exempted a very small percentage of humanity from destruction, therefore mankind was not "totally" wiped out, and sin remains a debilitator of mankind. Sodom and Gohorrah was not a totality, from it were saved three person, Lot and his two daughters and sexual perversion still persists, and so forth.

That which is Totally Depraved leaves nothing to be redeemed. That which is Totally Pure, leaves nothing requiring redemption. It is only what is between those extremes, that is, less-than-total depravity, and less-than-total purity where God's redemption work is performed.

So DROP the "total depravity" label and there can be some agreement.

 

Three common misconceptions about the doctrine of total depravity.

1. Total depravity is not the same as absolute depravity. Total depravity refers to an entire absence of holiness, not the fullest measure of sin. For this reason, perhaps a better term than "total depravity" is "pervasive depravity." Absolute depravity, would mean that a person expresses his depravity to the fullest degree at all times.

2. Total depravity does not teach that unregenerate man is incapable of doing any good, relatively speaking. Calvinists affirm that non-believers can perform what humanity commonly calls "good works" in a nontheological sense apart from true faith. From a theological perspective, good works cannot be performed by nonbelievers.

3. Total depravity does not mean that human nature is inherently wicked. God created man in his image. It was only after Adam introduced sin into the world that the human will became antagonistic to God. Humanity's inability to believe is a moral inabilty, not a natural inability. (J. Edwards, The Freedom of the Will)
Calvinists believe that humans are unable to free themselves from their depravity. Since the fall of man, an unsaved person is under the curse of sin, unable to love God, and wholly unable to do anthing meriting salvation.
John L. Daggs "By nature we love darkness rather than light, sin rather than holiness." The unbelieving mind is at enmity with God.

Even Jocob Arminius agreed on the issue of total depravity. He wrote that man's free will "is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God. And finally: "nothing can be spoken more truly concerning man is this state, than that he is altogether dead in sin.

by HIS GRACE
mike

 

TNelson,
If you are saying that Total does not mean Total, thus meaning that the condition of totality does not truly mean "all of" or "absolute inclusion" of every, or "nothing excluded", then you are absolutely wrong!

The condition of Totality leaves no room for exclusions. Therefore if MANKIND is Totally Depraved, there can be none of mankind that is not depraved to the totality of depravity.

That condition does not exist in human history. Noah and the Flood is an example of exclusion, Lot and his Daughters is an example of exclusion in the History of Sodom and Gomorrah.

There is only one time in human history that Total depravity could have existed, and that is when there were only two humans alive, Adam and Eve. But scriptures don't even elude to their condition as being TOTAL DEPRAVITY, but only the condition of them having sinned. Sinning the sin that left within them the "knowledge of good and evil", which we all have in us because of Adam and Eve. So if their condition prior to sinning was that they were pure and sinless, it is logical that their condition after sinning is pure but having sinned. Thus having sinned, Adam and Eve set the precedent for all mankind. That is, that "All have sinned", which is the reason Jesus' death on the Cross atones for the sins of ALL mankind.

So why did Paul use those very words "All have sinned" (Rom 3:23), Why didn't he tell us that All are Totally Depraved? It is because that condition of Totality has never occured in the history of mankind, and the doctrine of Total Depravity is a false doctrine, based on False conception.

No I am not advocating that there is even one human being that did not sin, save for Jesus the Christ who by the way had a significant advantage over the rest of us in being Holy. He did after all have only one parent that could have sinned. There is no sin in the Father, and we can only surmise that Mary the mother of Jesus had not yet sinned because God the father chose her to be the one who would be the Mother of God/Man, Jesus, the Christ.

 

What part of "Total" can we not understand? Are we so "Depraved" that we can accept the thought that "Total" is somehow short of a whole?

Bro. Dallas

 

Can you accept that all means all?

 

Yes. All people are conceived in sin. Therefore all people are totally (wholly) depraved.

Yes. All the elect shall be saved.

Yes. All others will not know they have a need of being saved.

Bro. Dallas

Enjoyed your post Sularis, got a laugh out of it. BTW, do you know Bro. Paul Tuck, or Bro. David Shortt?

God Bless

 

Again you hit the nail squarely on the head again Frogman... Question... What would happen if a non-elect found himself in Heaven and in the presence of God and his Son Jesus Christ if it were possible?... Would he not HATE God with an INTENSE HATRED as he is out of place!... GET ME OUT OF HERE!... Brother Glen

 

If a non-elect who believed in Jesus and is repentant finds himself in Heaven, the heavenly hosts would be kicking up their heals in Joy and great praise for the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of this non-elect who believes.

The Scriptures say so!

 

Excuse me but the non-elect can not believe in Jesus because he is not among the elect... He is still in his sins!... He doesn't belong to Christ!... The scriptures say so!... Brother Glen

 

Jesus said that eternal life comes to whosoever believes in Him. He did not say that only those my father gives me can believe in me, though there may be some of those.

Unless you are willing to state that Jesus was wrong, you have no choice but to believe that Jesus truly extended salvation to whosoever believeth in Him.

If, however, your are so willing, please disclose where you live, so we can give you wide birth.

 

Hi Tyndale;
How do you know They're non-elect? Or better yet if you walked up and started preaching the gospel to a sinner,what makes you so sure they wouldn't respond. How can they believe when alot of people in the world have never heard the gospel. None of us can be so sure that if you preached the gospel to them they won't come to Christ. We don't know who God will elect. Only God knows.Besides we are all drawn to Christ when we here the gospel this is election.This is how we know we are elected,We are drawn.
May God Bless You.
Mike

 

First, Jesus did say this in John 6. Second these two groups are the same group. Whosoever believes are the ones whom the Father gives.

We are not the ones saying that Jesus was wrong. It is you who must say that, based on the actual words of Jesus.

 

First, Jesus did say this in John 6. Second these two groups are the same group. Whosoever believes are the ones whom the Father gives.

We are not the ones saying that Jesus was wrong. It is you who must say that, based on the actual words of Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, You are saying that none can come unless the father gives them to the Son. The Son is saying that 'whosoever believeth...'

Man is saying that God elects who can come, God says the preparations are made, the work is done, the supper is prepared so whosoever will may come. The supper was prepared for the elect, the Jews, God's chose people, who made excuses as to why they could not attend, so God threw open the invitation to any who would come, the 'whosoever believers'. The whole of mankind is invited to come. So whomever hears the invitation and gets ready and comes is guaranteed a great time...eternity is theirs.

Now if you mean that God is down on the highways and byways picking and choosing, you are quite simply wrong. He has sent messengers, preachers if you will, to tell all who would hear about the invitation, and of all that hear and "wash their garments" (are born again) and come, there is room for them at the table. It matters not the state in life of the hearer, spotless robes are all that is required. Meaning that you cannot come dirty!

There is nothing about election in the invitation.

 

You need to read more closely. What I said was that these two groups are the same people, as Christ clearly tells us. You are the one who is changing his words. He said that no one can come unless the FAther gives him and all that the Father gives will come. The simple point is that "whosoever will" are the ones whom the Father draws. Of course, we have been through this many times and you never dealt with teh Scripture then so why would we expect it to be different this time.

Actually, God said the first and did the latter. Man is not making this stuff up. This is what God said in his word.

This is certainly true. The invitation is given to all but only those who "will" come are given eternal life. They "will" come only because hte Father gives it to them to come. The rest "will not" come and therefore do not have eternal life.

 

I Amen Bro. Glenn and wish to say to point out that in the U.S. there is a death every 13 seconds and a birth every 7 seconds this means that the U.S. grows by one person every 9 seconds. Now, lets consider the world, more Geographically precise those parts of the world where technology is not carrying the Gospel and those far out of the way places where missionaries are not typically drawn to. I mean the places it takes days to access either by river boat or hiking through dense jungles over mountain ranges etc. Now, what is the death rate of these people in these remote places, well I am not sure, but I do know that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the knowledge of God. So, who is likely to reach these people, men, women and churches who are directing their attention at the large cities of the world, or the Holy Spirit who is not bound by borders, rivers, mtn. ranges, nor respectful of large populations of numbers so mission boards and societies etc can be impressed with the numbers of people who are "hearing" the Gospel.

Christ said these things were impossible with man, but with God all things are possible concerning one person and this a wealthy man; since then the church has almost consistently focused on this rich man and left off with the masses.

Will God fail to draw and quicken His blood bought people? NO.

If He relies on man to get the word out will some not "hear" and die in their sins? YES, inevitably. Who do we want to depend upon here?

God Bless
Bro Dallas