If Total Depravity is true, why did Christ need to hide his message in parables?

Point those out please. I've looked, can't find them. I'm referring specifically to on topic posts, not those where you start with your endless objections and reasonings against the Grace of God.

Wow, blow me down, you actually AGREE with posts #22 ,#27,#51, & #52 ??? You never addressed any those at all. The posts were either directed to the OP or direct response to you.

 

This interpretation ties/binds/constrains/restrains the life giving spirit to the preached word and is contrary to the 8th verse:

“the Spirit where he willeth doth blow....”

Gill on Jn 3:3:
“....except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God.

Gill on Jn 3:8:
“...The wind bloweth where it listeth,.... For ought any mortal can say, or do to the contrary: and so the Spirit of God is a free agent in regeneration; he works how, and where, and when he pleases; he acts freely in the first operation of his grace on the heart, and in all after influences of it;...”

This erroneous interpretation also helps give rise to such erroneous dictums by Cyprian in the third century, who declared, “There is no salvation outside the church”.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” I Tim 2:5

Regeneration is immediate, direct. Man has nothing to do with it.

 

Your post simply demonstrates that you CAN find people who will agree with your position. That doesn't it make it the right position, only a possible position.

 

Is there a mediator other than Christ between God and man?

No.

 

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

What does this have to do with a mediator?

 

"Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?"

It means that no preacher or church or writings or any other material thing in this temporal realm has anything to do with the birth from above. It is the voice of the Son of God that makes alive.

“the Spirit where he willeth doth blow....”

 

You skip to a conclusion hardly related to the exposition of the passage. It belongs to the conclusion. Where is the body of the exposition? I am not speaking about verse 10. What has that got to do with verse 5? Nothing! We were discussing verse 5. If you have nothing to add to this conversation or can't keep on track then perhaps bow out.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

 

My paraphrase:

"Except a man be born of water even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

 

No will do. The Greek word is kai. There is no sense in taking an obscure definition of the word when the common definition "and" will make sense. If you have to force your theology into the verse via eisigeses by using an obscure interpretation, you know that you probably have the wrong interpretation. It is not acceptable.

 

You're trying to make it sound as if I'm forcing this when that's not the case at all. Shame on you.

Strong's Number: 2532

Kai

Definition
and, also, even, indeed, but

I wasn't translating, I was paraphrasing.

I reiterate from my previous post:

"Except a man be born of water even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

Are you going to paraphrase?

 

Joh 3:5

(Darby) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(DRB) Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(ESV) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(GW) Jesus answered Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

(ISV) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(NET) Jesus answered, "I tell you the solemn truth,11 unless a person is born of water and spirit,12 he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(ASV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! (John 3:5)

(WEB) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! (John 3:5)

(YLT) Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; (John 3:5)

Not a single translation consulted agrees with you. You have chosen an obscure translation of the word in order to force your interpretation of the verse according to your pre-conceived theology.


Now, back to the real question:
Jesus mentions two agents by which a person must be born again: water and the Spirit. We all agree that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit. You must be born again of the Holy Spirit. But we do not all agree what the water represents. What does the "water" in John 3:5 represent. Besides a lousy translation of the verse, give good reasons for your case. What does the word "water" represent in John 3:5? That is the question to be answered.

 

There's not two agents in v 3 and there's not two agents in v 8, but DHK insists that there really is two agents involved in the spiritual birth.

I agree with Gill, my paraphrase agrees with Gill, which I've already given 2-3 posts back:

“....except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God.

No. It's your turn. You say it's the word. I don't know if you mean the written word or the preached word, or a command from God. I don't know what you mean or how you're going to make this agent #2 fit into the context or harmonize with other scripture concerning the spiritual birth.

The onus is on you.

 

OK, You agree with Gill for no apparent reason. I gave you a number of translations all of which translated the word "kai" as "and," and there is no reason not to. Therefore let's proceed. What other reason can you or Gill give that "water" should refer to the Holy Spirit?

 

FWIW, kai has a much broader usage than simple a connective "and." In Gal 6:16, the "...and to the Israel of God" may not indicate a seperate clause but a joining of that clause to the preceeding one. So it's not utterly far-fetched what KY is talking about, DHK. I'm with you in that it is a fallacy to use a semantic domain for every usage. However, don't dismiss the possibility that it could mean what he speaks of.

KYRed...find a better Greek dictionary than Strong's. You know the old saying: Strong's isn't strong, and Young's isn't young! :laugh: Consult BDAG (3rd edition), Thayers, Liddell and Scott, among others.

 

True, but he can't hang all of his argument on just that one translation of kai. I want to hear a little more substance than that.

 

You know, you're trying my good nature, and you're not playing fair. None of those translations showed me to be wrong, and they most definitely did not support your insertion of the word (whatever it is that you mean, you won't clarify or expound) into v 5.. But I'll throw this one in, and that's it until you explain your view. Do I start calling you 'One Way DHK'?:

3 For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,
5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3

 

Go back and read them. Every one of them proved you wrong. If you had been right, at least one of them would have read "water even the Spirit. But not one of the read that way. ALL of the translated kai as "and," and read, "water and the Spirit. They proved you wrong.

I will explain my position to you now. The verse you quoted also supports my position.

In John 3:5 Jesus states that there are two and only two agents by which a man is born again. One is water, and the other is the Holy Spirit. We all agree on the Holy Spirit, so what does the word "water" represent? The Catholics maintain it represents "baptism." We know that is not right because the Bible does not teach baptismal regeneration. I don't believe it means "Spirit" as you say because then Christ is simply being redundant. Why wouldn't he just come out and say: being born of the "Holy Spirit." There would be no need for the word "water." The word "water" does symbolize something. Some believe it refers back to the first birth, the physical birth, a plausible interpretation. But is it the best one? I don't believe it is, because I don't believe that Nicodemus would have been thinking about amniotic fluid. That no doubt would have been one of the last things on his mind. So what does "water" mean, and how do we find out? We compare Scripture with Scripture.

First, what is the over-all general purpose of water?
It is cleansing agent. Water is used for cleaning.
There are a number of Scriptures that Nicodemus could have gone back to in his mind and thought of as soon as Christ mentioned this (Psalm 119:9; Jer.2:22).
Nicodemus was also close to the Temple where hundreds of Jews performed ceremonial washings every day. No Jew could ever get this sight out of their mind, for a rabbi such as Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin would go through this ritual on a daily basis.

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. (John 15:3)
--Jesus says that it is the Word of God that cleanses you. Water is representative of the Word of God. There are only two agents by which one is born again: water and the Holy Spirit. Water represents the Word of God. It cleans us.

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
--We are begotten or born again through the Word of God. There are two agents by which one is born again. One is the Word of God. The other is the Holy Spirit. Water is representative of the Word of God.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)
--Here Peter directly says that one is born again by the Word of God. You cannot be born again without the Word of God. There are only two agents by which a person is born again: water and the Holy Spirit. Water thus represents the Word of God, through which Peter says a person is born again. The Word of God is the gospel. The Holy Spirit works through the gospel. Both are needed to bring the person to Christ.

Look again:
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
--Not of works.
--It is of cleansing.
--It is of the Holy Spirit.
This fits everything that I have said above. One is born again by the Holy Spirit as he uses the Word of God. "Water" is a cleansing agent, and that is what the Word of God does--it cleanses us from sin by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

This is the new birth. And again:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)
--Here is where the free will of man comes in.
As many as received him...to them that believe on his name--they became the children of God; and then more clarification:
Which were born.....of God.
To become a child of God one is born of God.
They are born of God by believing in the message of God at the same time that the Holy Spirit is working in their life.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

 

I also believe the water spoken of by Jesus refers to the word of God.

I believe this is shown also by what Jesus said about the Spirit that seems to always be overlooked:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Everybody overlooks that Jesus said we could hear the sound of the Spirit. How do we hear the Spirit? Through God's word.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said his very words are spirit, and they are life. The scriptures say the word of God is quick or alive.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We are born again by the word of God.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Now, you put this all together and you see the Word of God is Spirit, and it is also called water as shown before by other posters.

You can hear the Spirit, because it is the Word of God.

 

No, they did not prove me wrong. The translators did their job and translated words. That's all.

OK

No it doesn't

Two agents is what you're attempting to force into the text. The overall context does not support two agents, only one.

OK

OK.

I fail to see how you read all that into that one verse. No where is the 'spiritual birth from above' mentioned or even alluded to.

That is a real stretch on your part to read all that into that one verse. No where is 'born from above' mentioned,; it's not the same meaning:

having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures. James 1:18 YLT

Compare with:

.... It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3:7 YLT

James was an apostle to the circumcision, his intended audience being Jewish Christians, the letter is addressed to 'to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion'. The Jews were the first fruits (to the Jew first) into the Church.

That is a real stretch on your part to read all that into that one verse. No where is 'born from above' mentioned,; it's not the same meaning:

being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God -- living and remaining -- to the age; 1 Pet 1:23 YLT

Compare with:

.... It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3:7 YLT

As the apostle to the circumcision, his intended audience being Jewish Christians (the letter is addressed to 'to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion'), Peter is telling the Jewish believers that they, as Jews, have been restored again as God had promised them through the prophets.

DHK, just because you keep saying the same thing over and over and over again like repeating a mantra or something doesn't make it so or cause it to come to pass. It gets tiresome. So far you've proved nothing. The washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost is referring to exactly that, the washing of regeneration by the Spirit.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:13,14

Take note of this THREEFOLD DENIAL from the scriptures of any human involvement. Those that did receive Him had already been born, not of blood (not because they belonged to any superior race, like the Jews considered themselves to be), nor of of the will of the flesh (not because the individual chose to or accepted it), nor of the will of man (not because someone persuaded or compelled them), but of God. The child of God is 100% totally passive in the spiritual birth.

These had been born of water even of the Spirit.