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If You Can't Question It, Don't Call It Science

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Revmitchell, Dec 27, 2021.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I'm an astrophysicist at a major university. Science is my life. But when I hear somebody somberly intone, "science says" or "follow the science," I get very nervous.



    Science doesn't belong to any ideology. Science is the never-ending search for new knowledge.



    That's what science means in Latin, by the way—knowledge. Not wisdom. Not morality. Not social policy. Knowledge. What we do with that knowledge is where wisdom, morality, and social policy enter the picture.



    Knowledge, it turns out, isn't so easy to come by. And sometimes what we think we know for certain (the earth sure does look flat when we're standing on it) turns out not to be so certain.



    Of course, I trust in basic scientific truths—those things for which there is overwhelming evidence like, say, gravity; even that humans play a role in the warming of the planet.



    But scientists—even the best ones—can get things wrong.…..


    ……..
    the 20th century, some of the most respected scientists in the world, including Nobel Prize winners, believed in eugenics—the reprehensible idea that the human race could be improved by selective breeding. The National Academy of Sciences, the American Medical Association, and the Rockefeller Foundation supported it. By the middle of the century, it had been thoroughly rejected as quackery. No reputable scientist would have anything to do with this idea.



    So, we all need to get over this notion that just because someone—be it a politician, a bureaucrat, or even a scientist—employs the phrase "science says" means whatever they're saying is right.



    It might be right. But it might also be wrong. And if it's wrong, it won't necessarily be a bunch of scientists who say it's wrong. It might be one guy…….

    …….Science is never closed. If it was closed after Newton, you'd never have Einstein. Science has to be, first and always, about pursuing knowledge—not about advancing a social agenda, no matter how noble it might be. Science has no political party.……


    ……So let's continue to look to science for knowledge—knowledge we can use to improve the world. But let's not fool ourselves that science has all the answers to all our problems.



    It doesn't.


    https://www.prageru.com/if-you-cant-question-it-dont-call-it-science
     
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  2. Two Wings

    Two Wings Well-Known Member

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    Like a lot of folks, I use science routinely in my profession.

    But if the science in my profession is like that suggested by some “it changes” because of my interpretation of it ...

    could it be Bernoulli fails because I suddenly decide my interpretation of it changed? :eek:

    Or Boyle quits?

    Those are not comforting thoughts.

    So I suggest there must be discernment when declaring “follow the science.” Or “science says”

    Prove it. That’s science, right? Knowledge is knowledge ... as you so aptly stated, it’s NOT wisdom.

    Great post.
     
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  3. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Well, it's different now. "Science" is no longer Science. It has become a manipulated propaganda tool. Debate is silenced so that the false "science" can have it's desired political outcome.
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The difference is questioning conclusions (which is fine) as opposed to ignoring facts (the anti-covid-vax approach to "questioning science").

    This is the only way to see beyond political agenda on both sides.

    @Wingman68 posted an article questioning the existance of the sars-cov-2 virus. @Revmitchell denied the existance of genome sequence surveillance to detect varients. @Reynolds thinks mRNA vaccines are gene therapy.

    That is not questioning science but denying science. Questioning science would be questioning the effectiveness of vaccines as varients increase and become more dominant. It would be questioning whether the risks of vaccines warrant mass vaccination.

    But what we see on this board are anti-covid-vaxers posting misinformation and denying science. Flat-earthers question science (question scientific conclusions). Those here flat out deny science.
     
  5. Two Wings

    Two Wings Well-Known Member

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    Or accepting what is reported as facts because a scientist said so … or even a bunch of scientists said so.

    need it be said AGAIN … Galileo? Christopher Colombo?
     
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  6. Two Wings

    Two Wings Well-Known Member

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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Because a scientist said so? What is reported insofar as data is simply data.

    It is a fact that the vaccines protect against dying of covid. It is a fact more people die of covid than experience more than mild side-effects from vaccines. These are a given- not because scientists come to this conclusion but because this has happened.

    The debatable conclusion is whether vaccines are worth the risk of side-effects, what the future of covid will look like, etc.

    The anti-covid-vaxers have already been proven wrong. If they want to be relevant they need to address real issues, not bring conspiracy theories and pseudoscience.

    It is as if they are saying it is impossible for an airplane to fly as jets are flying overhead. They are far too easily dismissed, so real concerns are never addressed.
     
  8. Two Wings

    Two Wings Well-Known Member

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    Round and round we go.

    NO ... it is as if the pro cv vaxers accept that an airplane flies by magic simply because they want to believe that data which was released.

    How soon we forget the problems with the PCR tests and upon which MUCH was placed for policy in cv response. It was/is about as scientific as a sociology class.

    Your dismissal of concerns to “conspiracy theory” pseudoscience is pitiful. I do not want any to be ashamed of their behavior, but it will come to pass.

    There is no integrity in this cv response. There never has been.There are those who are part of the delusion and those who have succumbed to the delusion. Negligent or incompetent.

    AFA the effectiveness of the cv jab ... there are immune systems which are placed into cell-mediated/adaptive response 24/7 against the spike protein. This is the desired objective, but the problem is the other effects of this 24/7 response to something which may or may not exist. Let alone the adverse affects ... which IS substantial regardless of what you consider legitimate reporting ... which brings us back to the problem of the pro cv vaxers: blindly accepting “credentialed” reports even when the reports make no sense.
     
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  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    You are emotional, I am emotional on the Covid issue. Forget about Covid for a minute. Apply this argument to the fossil fuel driven global warming issue. In the 70s, science said fossil fuel was going to cause the next ice age. In the 90s and early 2000s, science said fossil fuel was going to warm the earth so much the polar caps melted. Science can't now decide what will happen, but to keep fossil fuel the Boogie Man, science says fossil fuel will cause "climate change" and climate change will kill us all.
    Politicians have made "science" a bought and paid for whore.
     
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  10. Two Wings

    Two Wings Well-Known Member

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    I’ll throw down with this too

    When you threaten me with my job for something completely unrelated to the job ... yeah ... you’re gonna get challenged. I don’t care if it’s govt or a corporation. Coercion is coercion.

    In fact, that corporations are executing these wrong policies on behalf of govt ... only underscores the unholy relationship therein ... and thereout.
     
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  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Exactly. Considering that the vaccine does not stop transmission and most studies show does not even slow it, the govt has no business mandating it. It is not the job of the govt to protect me from myself. Trying to say the vax protects others has been debunked. It is ALL about power.
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    More like we look up in tge shy and see a jet while our anti-vax friends cry "no, that's impossible". :Wink
     
  13. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    Nice try, but no cigar!!!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Except the vaccine has in fact shown to prevent transmission (although less so with varients) and to de rease serious infections to include death. The unvaccinated death rate from covid is much higher than tee death rate among the unvaccibated (even with the omnicron varient). The facts are against you.
     
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    The vaccine has not been shown to reduce Delta or Omicron transmission. Some studies say it does. Some studies say it does not. Some studies say it increases transmission. The data shows the vax does not decrease transmission. England and Israel are almost fully vaxed and they have outbreak as bad as they had it before the vax and when they were 50% vaxed. If a vax works, as vaccine rates go up, new cases go down proportionally. That is not happening. You can't find the video now (censorship), but the CEO of Moderna said their vax was was not an effective vax against Omicron and would not be until the vax was updated. You can find a million videos where everyone says that he is wrong or trust to say he didn't say what he said, but good luck finding his interview where he said it
     
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  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Moderna CEO says COVID vaccines will struggle with Omicron

    Moderna CEO predicts existing COVID vaccines less effective against Omicron
     
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  17. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Nah, more like, “Look! Up in the sky!” “It’s a bird!.” “It’s a plane!” “No, it’s Super Science!”

    But everyone who knows, knows it’s just that ubiquitous epitome of mendacity Fauci. Never a good sign.

    Wonder what that lightning-bolt SS on his uniform really stands for. :Wink
     
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The vaccine has been shown to reduce Delta transmission and to reduce serious illness with the omnicron varient. You are wrong in this one.

    I don't doubt I can find videos of people claiming otherwise. I can find videos explaining the earth is flat, we never landed on the moon, and Hod does not exist as well.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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  20. Two Wings

    Two Wings Well-Known Member

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    Of the top 5 counties that have the highest percentage of population fully vaccinated (99.9–84.3%), the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) identifies 4 of them as “High” Transmission counties. Chattahoochee (Georgia), McKinley (New Mexico), and Arecibo (Puerto Rico) counties have above 90% of their population fully vaccinated with all three being classified as “High” transmission. Conversely, of the 57 counties that have been classified as “low” transmission counties by the CDC, 26.3% (15) have percentage of population fully vaccinated below 20%.

    ======

    Now this study is from the end of Sept ... pre omicron rage ... but it seems pretty clear, the cv vax isn’t all that and a bag of chips. Certainly not the 97% claimed by the manufacturer as mathematically if only 3% of the cv jabbed are getting infected (as claimed) then these numbers wouldn’t present as they are.

    So are there more placebos in the mix? Are there more diluted jabs in the till? Perhaps those placebos and dilluted vials are the only thing keeping the so called cv jabbed from being completely infected?

    Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States - European Journal of Epidemiology
     
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