Featured IF You Hold To Sign Gifts Operating, what verse/Function?

What exactly in scripture makes you think tongues were not languages?

Acts 2:4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

 

Twisting in the wind...

And I had the GUTS to apologize to Amy...what are you to her, her guardian angel? Does Amy need you to represent her? She seems more than able to hold her own, and I am not attacking her beliefs, simply offering my views.

And I never directly accused her of using satanic tactics. I said that the example she provided was the same used by the devil on Jesus in the wilderness temptations.

So, once again, you are twisting words, and meanins to make yourself appear all puffed up and bigger than life. :sleep:

 

It depends on the text....

There are several different versions of this verse that use " and others that use " I prefer to use language. I think we both have to agree that when it comes to the Word, there are many views and many versions of how one text or even one word can read. It is all in the eye of the beholder, and in this case, I am beholding to "language" while it appears you are beholding to " So be it. That is your choice. And who knows, it may be the right one. Only time will tell? Right?

 

I don't really know what you are saying here, but you apparently you don't have any scripture to back up your belief. I gave you scripture which proves "tongues" were actual languages, but you would rather ignore that and stick to your non language language.

 

Well dude..what can i say...it seems like someone peed in your cornflakes, and you took a few spoonfuls, and now are frustrated at the world.

You never answered my one main question to you.....in your personal attacks directed at me.....you say several times that i want everyone to believe exactly what I believe, or that I think everything I post is right.

I answered you by saying that everyone posts what they believe is true.

No one posts error intentionally. The truth is you do not like the teaching , the doctrine ,that I offer,You do not like the historic confessions of faith, because they agree. When I post a link...you can not answer it.

You keep objecting ..saying my theology, my view, but you have no answer to the millions who hold exactly what i hold to as the truth of God.
You would not let it go. I would have kept this disagreement private if you emptied your inbox, when you sent your pompous Pm.

There is no way we are going to agree on much here dude...as you go outside of scripture...with your prophet....and your "special tongue"...which somehow is not a language now?? there is no agreement possible here, you have another gospel according to your posting to me...remember when you said the god I follow..or whatever it was ??? I think you went over the edge.

Maybe someone else can communicate with you better than I can. My real brothers offer me correction from scripture if i drift off....not personal attacks.
Dude not for anything ...but you would be an easy target if i wanted to rip on you personally.....but that is an ungodly approach to our differences.

if you are going to post in a debate forum...then get questioned....be prepared to answer...if not you are going to continue to get upset,and defensive which does no one any good.

sorry I cannot help you dude...

 

Well. you said what I said...

I gave you a scripture (in post #64, and you are simply trying my patience) which proves "tongues" were actual "languages"! I do not disagree with this; however, the text I refer to is 1 Cor. 14:4, and again; some versions use tongues, while others use language. Like I said, I prefer to call it a language, as I said in another post to you, because when we pray, the Holy Ghost takes our words (language) and interprets in a word (language) that God can understand (even our groaning and utterances). To add to this, how many different languages are spoken around this world, let alone the many different dialects. And while I can't even begin to speak another language, it should be noted that when believers, with another language prays, the Holy Ghost takes their words to God in a language that God can understand, even though we cannot.

And as far as it being a secret language that the devil cannot understand. Well, that is bunk. If the devil could go to God and talk to Him about Job, I would never be dumb enough to say that Satan is not able to understand what our prayers to God are. It was apparent that Satan heard everything that went on between Job and God, which is why he asked God for permission to test Job!

Why can't you simply let it lay as I have said, because I am not going to call it a tongue, when I clearly believe it was a language then and remains so today? Again, you say tomato, and I say tomatoe! No big deal. Unless you are willing to come right out tell me that my belief in it being a language vs, a tongue will keep me from going to heaven?

Is that what you are trying to say?

 

Of course not. Why would you even ask that? We disagree and you are too sensitive to be involved in debates, so we'll just leave it here. :wavey:

 

Twisting, Again!

I have only one question to ask you: ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?

Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you? It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do. Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way. However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology. If you can live with yourself, fine with me. You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!

As I said in another post to you: I am perfectly happy with MY LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

:laugh:

Lighten up Francis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs

RD2, Please take Amy's advice...you are way too sensitive to debate. It may be best for you to not debate as you get easily twisted.

Also, no one is even slightly questioning where you will spend eternity.

 

No, of course not.

Must? Nope.

However, authority in the Kingdom is God is administrated through words, among other activities. For instance, the centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant who was paralyzed understood that kingdoms were managed by commands. He recognized the Kingdom of God for what it was, God’s authority upon the heavens and earth, and he had confidence in Jesus as the primary Administrator of that authority to heal his servant with a command from a distance. (See Matthew 8:5-13)

Many of the miracles that Jesus and the apostles performed were performed (as far as the human aspect goes) exclusively by command.

Of course not.

As I said in my first post in this discussion, “Legitimate sign gifts are used as signs for believers and unbelievers to authenticate the message of the speaker as a representative of God.”

Unfortunately, we've had several individuals who want to ascribe all kinds of heretical and abusive theology to those who disagree with them, so it is understandable that some of our positions may not be as clear as they should be.

Thank you for actually asking instead of misrepresenting/mocking.

 

Yes. They are not needed as much in today's work, but I believe God still uses them from time to time for His sovereign purposes.

Where in the world did you get this idea?

Paul raised a young man from the dead in Acts 20:9-12...

If you are commenting on Paul's "thorn in the flesh", that is not about the ability to heal, since the ability to heal has always been granted according to the sovereign will of God. Jesus Himself only healed people as the Father directed, not according to His own will (see John 5:19-30, among many other passages in John regarding the relationship between Jesus and the Father).

If you are referring to Hebrews 2:3-4 (please correct me if I'm wrong), it says nothing of the sort. Some people, who already hold a view against the sign gifts, find an inference that the sign gifts have ceased since the author identifies those who had heard Jesus personally had been used of the Holy Spirit using sign gifts, but that does not disqualify anyone else from being used the same way. You have to come to the text with that prejudice to "see" it there.

 

My question is why do you believe the sign gifts are still in operation?
What scriptures do you use to support your belief? Do you have personal experience with sign gifts?

Paul did not heal Timothy of his stomach ailment. He did not heal Epaphroditus, and he was not able to rid himself of the thorn in his side. Why not?

 

Let's define some terms:

When I am referring to sign gifts, I am primarily referring to the list of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11, which consists of word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, effecting of miracles (some include exorcism as a miracle, but I don't think it necessarily applies), prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, kinds of tongues, and interpretation of tongues.

I believe the gifts are still available and in operation (according to the will of God, not to will of the person wanting to exercise the gift) is that there is no scripture teaching that the gifts have ended. Furthermore, there is evidence in the lives of believes that at least some of the gifts are still in operation. Please note that there is no scriptural requirement for ALL of the gifts to be operation in ALL cultures and ages.

1 Corinthians 12-14 gives extensive teaching on the proper use of the gifts. I have found no compelling scriptural argument that teaches that 1 Corinthians 12-14 is out-of-date. And believe me, I've looked for 25 years.

Yes, with some of the gifts.

word of wisdom - Infrequent personal experience
word of knowledge - Knowingly exercised several times a year, sometimes more often if I'm ministering to numerous people in crisis.
faith - I don't know what this would look like, so I can't say either way.
healing - Personally involved in one healing at a hospital in Torrington, Wyoming in March 1987.
effecting of miracles - No, unless you count exorcism. The last time I needed to exercise authority over the demonic was Spring 1991.
prophecy - I'm not sure if this differs from speaking "truth to power" or involves supernatural insight. There's a pretty good chance this has been exercised through me, but I can't tell you for sure.
distinguishing of spirits - Frequently manifested in my life.
kinds of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).
interpretation of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).

For the record, I wouldn't characterized many (if any) of these experiences as being "emotional" or "feeling-oriented" like so many detractors assume. I cannot specifically think of any particular incident described above as being emotional except for potentially some of the incidents involving commanding demonic spirits. On several of those occasions, I was rather irritated because I was getting tired of the constant harassment.

God's grace was sufficient for His power is perfected in weakness (see 2 Corinthians 12:9). There are purposes for sickness and infirmities, even though it interferes with the American concept of "the pursuit of happiness". As I have stated many times in this forum, the sign gifts are not empowered by human abilities and they are only empowered by the will of God through the Holy Spirit. Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all Persons who have intelligence, will, plans, intentions, wisdom, etc. (they are not an impersonal Force like in Star Wars), one must not expect that they can simply decide they are going to heal people without specific guidance from God.

Even Jesus did not heal everyone. If you notice in John 5, Jesus picked only one person by the Pool of Siloam to heal.

So real question should be "Why does God sometimes heal people?"

The answer is that God sometimes heals people to bring Himself glory, as an act of mercy, and to further His purposes. Those who allow themselves to be used to express the sign gifts usually understand this.

 

They were used to authenticate the messenger of the message in the NT age only, and then primarily that only of an apostle or his associate. Few outside of that circle had those gifts. The Corinthian group abused the gifts. We are told specifically that the gifts would cease. The context tells us that they did--near the end of the first century when the Bible was completed.
That they did--when the Apostles all died off near the end of the first century, for they were signs to verify an apostle--"signs of an apostle."
That they did--for history itself verifies this: not much about speaking in tongues is recorded after the first century except by cults and paganism.

Why do you think that is a gift of the Spirit as defined by the Bible?
Why do you think that falls under "word of knowledge"?
That is not word of knowledge IMO, and according to my study. Word of knowledge has nothing to do with the affairs of others. It had directly to do with revelatory knowledge--knowledge that now is in the Bible, but was not in the Bible previously. When these gifts were operational the Bible was not yet complete. When the Bible was completed (perfected), then that which was in part (tongues, prophecy, knowledge (revelatory) ), these all passed away, ended. They had no more purpose.
The Holy Spirit guides today. If your walk is close with God, God can reveal at times things to you. If you are not walking close with God, even Christians can get caught up in the paranormal, which is what you also have described. I am not saying it is. I trust your walk is close with God.

That is not an objective confirmation. The objective confirmation is the actual answer to prayer. The objective answer that God hears our prayer is our faith in the Word of God and our walk with God. The objective answer to others is that our life is different than others if though we may not realize that it is different. Many times I have been asked, "why is your life different than the others I meet here"? It gives me the opportunity to witness for Christ. The rest of the world lives ungodly lives.

What you say goes against Scripture:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--The Scripture tells that in OT times God spoke through the prophets at various times in different ways--visions, dreams, audibly, through miracles at times, etc.
But now he speaks to us through His Son. His Son is revealed to us through the completed Word of God, not through miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are not needed. Everything that we need is in the Scriptures.

Experience does not validate the Word of God. It is the other way around. You are using your experience as your authority. That is the Charismatic MO. Their foundation is experience. From there they build. It becomes doctrinal chaos.
You did not describe "word of knowledge" as it is known in the Bible. You described: zeal, an ability to speak well, being led by the Holy Spirit, and hopefully being filled with the Holy Spirit. There was no "word of knowledge" there. That gift has ceased, and had to directly with the giving of NT revelatory knowledge. It ended by the first century when the revelation of God's Word was complete. It is strange to me that you have no remembrance of what is said. That would lead me to believe you were in a trance like condition, and your experience is more related to the paranormal than to Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads into truth and is not forgetful.

True, that is common. It is not a gift of the Spirit. It is being led of the Spirit in one's preaching.

Like what other sign gifts?
Have you ever seen anyone with the gift of healing walk through all the hospitals of any given city and heal everyone that is there--especially those that are in the ER?
It doesn't happen. The gift has ceased.

Why aren't missionaries given the gift of tongues (languages)?
Why do they have to learn the language before they go over to a foreign field? Why isn't that gift legitimately in use today?

The reason is because they have ceased.

 

Well ,
Thank you for your response here Dude:thumbs::wavey: This was the question i wanted you to respond to. We both got a little heated perhaps.
This is a much better interaction here.

Dude...lets clear the air here.

Let me say this dude. You can express this opinion of me if that makes you happy. I am just a sinner saved by grace. You do not know me,you have no idea what I do...so be careful not to slander me, or go about as a talebearer.

It is not my place to say that to any person.That Judgement belongs to God alone who sees the heart. You can be wrong on many doctrines and still go to heaven if you are the object of God's saving grace.
I will never say you are going to heaven , or hell....that is between you and God. Sometimes i see warning signs in someones posts...
for example QF....likes to branch out and consider some of the NPP. and open theism teaching and teachers.....I voiced a concern to him. He is a big boy...he told me he is fine...thats all i can do.
I will read the posts in here and comment on what i see as good edifying posts....and others the contain partial truth partial error. I will comment on posts that are wrong. I try to help those who want help...there are some..
you, winman, benjamin, have let me know you are not looking for help...that is fine with me.
I look to offer good links to those who are teachable.
I will answer sincere objections to the grace of God---calvinism....as best as I can, with scripture, links, sermons,etc. I do not despise godly teachers that God has given as gifts to His church.

Dude.....if you come at me with an agenda to attack....I will respond and you might not like the response you get...but it will come.
if someone is sincere..i respond that way....if someone pokes a stick in my eye...i will stop them however that takes place...
if someone is trying to harm me.... i will deal with it as i need to.

In this thread i saw you as being in verse 5....i tried vs 4 for awhile ..but when you pushed it...I went to verse 5:thumbs:

I do not need you to believe as i do....I offer scripture, or the confessions of faith of godly brethren...who also prayed, studied, looked to the Spirit for wisdom.
I have seen you many times try to help people in here...that is a good thing.
i might have given you a thumbs up, or two....
However...this area of an open canon, false gifts, new revelation....is a direct attack on the FAITH...once delievered to the saints JUDE 3
once for all time delievered.... It is dangerous and rampant in our day...

If you look back ...when you first reacted to my posts...I used the expression WOF...Light......in other words....you distance your self from the WOF heretics, which is good....but what I see is you opening the door to it,like JF and several others in here. If it makes you feel any better...I am openly critical of John Piper, and wayne grudem...as they do the same.
they help many people in many areas....I am not saying they personally are ungodly....In this area..they do the church no favor and in fact do damage.

In this area of teaching, I will be critical yes... I see it as harmful,and not in accordance with the historic faith...1689, 1644 etc.

if you think i have error , you should offer scriptures to correct the error.
Once you offer scripture...the blood is of your head...ezk33 has this principle that the apostles used;

If you oppose the God I worship, or that form of doctrine that has been given...I will try and offer correction, or answer the objections..
with a new believer be more patient and plant seeds of truth..with those hardened against truth, who mock and ridicule...i will try to offer correction..but then fully expose the error....Let the reader decide:thumbsup:

I can live with myself just fine as i know that each one of us has to give account of himself to God.

The ability or lack of ability to perceive Divine truth is God given. I am to be faithful to what I have been given by God through many different ways, persons, messages, books, meditation. I recommend that everyone do the same.