Ilinois Student Gets Detention for Hugging

Being a pretty good authority on myself, I can say with no fear of contradiction you are wrong. If you agree to disagree with that, you will continue to be wrong. A simple hug is not sexualized. I hugged my brother and sister in law this morning with no thoughts of sex whatsoever. So that is proof that you are wrong, as if you needed any.

Several points of interest:

1. You connect physical touch with procreation, which seems to prove my point to at least some degree.
2. You admit that the bible does not teach that love "necessarily involves hugging or physical affection," which is again proving my point.
3. You say that even though the Bible defines love, you are willing to go outside that definition for what you think people need. I disagree with that.

Wrong? Not necessarily but extremely unwise to the point of foolishness. I would never hug a teenage girl that I was not related to. I would not hug a woman I was not related to unless she was old enough to be my grandmother or an extremely close friend of mine and my wife's.

Interesting. How is this not an admission that my argument is right?

Wow ... As compatible as they thought? It seems you are suggesting that unless people participate in some kind of sexual activity before marriage they might not be compatible. I hope I am misreading that.

Extremely misguided, IMO. I have no problem with couples who are engaged hugging, though it needs to be carefully guarded. But sex in marriage is something you learn in marriage, not before marriage. And compatibility is something you build, not that you have automatically.

Only among people who are disobedient to God.

I don't think how we are wired is as much the problem is how we are taught to deal with our sin natures.

Not sure what you mean by "in love." That is not a biblical term so far as I am aware, and so I hesitate to use it without knowing what someone means by it. "In love" is greatly misused today to talk about feelings and emotions when the Bible teaches that those are secondary to and the result of biblical love.

 

He understood what you were saying. He was just being, well, pastor Larry.

 

Way to go personal there, Dagwood.

If talking about issues and not being sidetracked by misplaced attempts at comedy by misrepresenting what someone believes is "being Pastor Larry," then I plead guilty, since I believe we ought to talk about issues and ought not to mispresent others' positions.

 

The ones who read your posts know what I am talkin about. People are usually blind to their faults, as you seem to be here.

 

Again, you go personal. Why?

I am not blind to my faults. But you have certainly not pointed one out here. And the people who read my posts know that. I have tried over the years here to be pretty insistent that we be fair with each other and not misrepresent others positions. I have tried hard to do that, and others have as well, but some have resisted it. That's unfortunate.

The post that I responded to was based on a complete and unjustified misrepresentation of my position. And a smiley face won't correct that. I think you know that. It wasn't funny, and it had no merit in the discussion. So I pointed it out. That was hardly wrong of me to do, and hardly a fault.

But I don't know why you insist on going on a personal attack against me. That makes no sense.

 

We agreed the Bible defines love. Then I added these words “Yet all people still need wholesome physical touch, which includes hugging or laying together, just like it is natural to want to procreate.”
Just because the Bible doesn’t specifically add the words hugging, laying together, physical touch etc.. This isn't going outside the biblical definition of love. You mentioned holy kisses (Romans) I don’t see that going outside the biblical definition of love, just adding to it. Although, I am not in favor of holy kisses.

Oh and FTR, I had instituted a no hugging rule in youth group regarding myself, it was not a rule for everyone to follow.

My post and your reply-

Huh? I meant roughhousing, wrestling, playing on an intertube in the swimming pool, playing the game twister with friends etc… All involve playful physical contact.

.

 

If you had met very many parents you would quickly realize that very few people in churches are very happily married.

About every week one reads about fallen pastors who got caught up in sexual immorality. So apparently the churches are not doing the job they once did.

You fail to recognize that life is more about life's lessons than simply regurgitating facts. The communists did a good job of that in their schools.

Read the Gospels and notice in particular how Jesus treated children. Certainly do not ever greet one another with a holy kiss. It wasn't too long ago that teachers hugged their students. Go to any sporting event and notice the comradery among the team members. When my daughter went out for track, the team would hug each of the team members after their event was over. That track team was start by a lady with 8 students 12 years earlier. Today that track team is about 95 students in a school of about 700. Every year they take first place.

I do not ever see Christ ever advocating a withdrawl of affection either. So why would you agree with the actions reported in the article and advocate such a thing among friends of the same sex?

When I was teaching I stopped hugging kids in both the church and school when parents saw an adult who was affectionate as a potential pedophile.

Perhaps you may remember the days when teachers hugged their students.

Your statement is a mixing of the Bible and what the world teaches.

Your statement does not agree with what scripture teaches when it says that love is the greatest.

Go to any former communist country and come back saying the same thing you wrote.

Refuse to hug and show affection to your children and see how well they do.

A baby will die in a very short time without affection. It is one of the most important things the nurses do in a hospital with premature babies.

Kids who come from great homes need little or no affection from friends and adults. However, they are able to give much love and affection. Some kids come from homes which are not much better than hell on earth. It is amazing what a good friend can do.

My daughter hugs both my wife and myself. She hugs our relatives. She hugs her friends. Personally I rejoice inside knowing how she is with people. Some of the people who come to our home do not know what it is like to be loved. She hugs people a lot. We are affectionate in our home. I could never imagine an administrator ever suspending a student who hugs her friends instead of being a cold fish toward others.

When I see students in class who are cold and distant, it is obvious what their influences are like or have been.

In jails it against the rules to hug a prisoner. Is that what we want in our schools? Are you advocating that schools have the same rules as prisons?

 

It's not an attack, just an observation. There is nothing malicious in pointing out a person's tendencies. We all have them, good and bad.

 

So you are in favor of hugging which the Bible does not mention, and not in favor of holy kisses which the Bible does not mention. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

Yet the Bible does mention hugging, touching, and laying together in the Song of Solomon.

It is entirely probably that the typical greeting in the ANE and first century was a hug.

But you recognized the need of it. I think it was something that should have been a universal rule as it was in ours. I had a no PDA rule in the youth group since it was unnecessary. The PDA that happened led to problems. I see no reason for teenagers to be involved in that, and so far, no one here has given a reason why teens ought to be hugging people outside their family.

And all of which I find not particularly wise. I think one can be playful without that kind of stuff. And one can learn what a person is truly like without that kind of stuff.

 

I know this at least as well as you do. I routinely counsel couples in heartbreaking situations.

Or the news gets around faster. But when hugging other people is acceptable, why are we surprised that it goes to the next step?

On what basis do you say this? One of life's lessons is that people who hug often don't stop there, particularly when pastors hug teenager girls as was brought up, or when teens hug each other. One of life's lesson's that comes from Scripture is that we are not give room for the flesh. I take that seriously. I think you should as well.

they had a rule against hugging??? Seriously, this is a good example of a red herring. You bring something in that has absolutely no relevance.

That wasn't the question. You said Jesus regularly hugged people. There are two or three occasions when the gospels talk about Jesus and children. And I have no problem with what Jesus did.

We don't. The holy kiss was a cultural form of greeting, still practiced in some places. In our culture, we shake hands, and occasional give a hug.

Some still do. Look at the results of that. It is simply unwise to do that.

Yes, which is an entirely different issue. After the team I coach recently won two state championships in soccer and finished this year in the regional final, I hugged a number of players and coaches. Again, that is an entirely different issue.

Good.

He did. He said to abstain from immorality. He said not to make provision for the flesh. He said to flee youthful lusts, which doesn't really sound like stand around really close with your arms next to someone and see what happens, and if you get aroused it is no big deal. So Jesus did give teaching on this matter.

Furthermore, you have defined 'affection' in an unbiblical way. The Bible uses "love" in a very different context than how it is getting thrown around here.

I agree with the suspension for reasons I have already given. And not on iota of biblical evidence or solid social evidence has been given in refutation.

You are wiser than you sound here.

I don't think I was ever hugged by a teacher. I had lots of that at home from my family.

How so?

Really? On what basis do you say that. You keep saying that hugging is about love. I say that biblical love is far different. You have offered no biblical evidence for Jesus regularly hugging people (as you tried to say originally).

I have been there. I say the same thing I wrote. What I saw there was in no way contradictory to this. Beleivers hugging other beleivers in the church, particularly of the same sex, is not the issue here.

Why would I refuse to hug my child? I do it all the time, as often as I can get him to stay still. Parents hugging children is not the issue.

I agree. That was not the topic of this thread.

[quote[Kids who come from great homes need little or no affection from friends and adults.[/quote]I agree.

These homes are far better than hell on earth, and quite frankly, to say they are not is to do a great disservice to the biblical teaching on the reality of hell and what it is.

I agree it is amazing what a good friend can do.

But these are all arguments that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. You keep trying to change it.

I am not sure that hugging and being a cold fish are opposites. I think there are plenty of ways to love people that don't involve hugging in a school. And I think if we concentrated more on making disciples of Christ, we would not have to resort to these lesser means of showing love.

Not always.

It is also against the rules in jail to show up late for things, or to fight with others. So we already have rules in schools that are just like rules in prisons. So this type of false dichotomy is not only bad argumentation. It is misguided.

 

But you didn't do that. You didn't point out a tendency. You pointed out that you havea misunderstanding of what I did.

 

No Larry, I didn't! I pointed out my observation of what you do. It is my opinion, and I don't need you to clarify it for me.

 

Makes perfect sense. The typical mating ritual-

1. Hugging
2. Kissing
3. Sex

Hugging is acceptable, kissing is too close to the last *step* imo.
Hugging is usually wholesome, kissing is not usually as wholesome but it can be.

Just because the word “hug” is not inserted in the biblical definition of love doesn’t equate my "going outside the biblical definition of love". A holy kiss is not specifically mentioned in the Biblical definition yet it falls under the category nonetheless.

1 Peter 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace be to you all who are in Christ.

What about holy kisses? You seem to be defending a holy kiss as biblically acceptable yet not a hug. Odd.

Though I assume in the context of Song of Solomon, the hugging and laying together you mentioned is between a married couple. This must be why you are defending holy kiss over a hug.

 

If you are afraid of what might happen then you have a lot of fear. No other woman ever excites me even close to what my wife does. In fact the more I am in love with my wife the more another woman looks poor. My wife takes great care of me and is very beautiful. I have no desire to hug another woman for any personal benefit or arousal for me.

Pastor in the south in a small church and the people wil expect you to hug them on a regular basis or they will find you cold.

Sexual immorality is not even close to being equatable with a simple hug. Drinking too much water can kill us but because of that knowledge do we stop drinking water?

My teacher in kindergarten and first grade hugged me from time to time as well as all of the other students. I never once thought of that as anything else other than a good thing. It was much like my grandmother hugging me.

If you had a wife who never touched you I am quite sure you would think of her as a cold fish.

So are you saying that you do not advocate stduents hugging their friends at school but it is okay in public among adults? Why comunicate something different at schol than in public.

I do not have any problem with friends hugging one another in an appropriate way.

There is a huge difference between some guy hanging on a girl and a friend hugging another friend in an appropriate way and at the appropriate time.

I am quite confident that most people know what is appropriate and what is not. If they do not then they must be taught. To avoid any touch just simply makes no sense nor is it healthy.

I do not go around hugging anyone unless I know they are comfortable with it and it is an appropriate place and time.

I see Jesus as doing more than hugging kids. Don't you think they sat on his lap?

 

And it was a misrepresentation that deserved to be corrected. You were wrong to have said what you said. If that was your observation, then you need to change your perspective. I rather believe it is personal because you don't like what you think are my politics and positions.

 

Both hugging and kissing are quite wholesome. The issue is the context in which they take place, and that has been my concern all along.

Yes it does. You are insisting that we add something to love that the Bible does not include in love. I think it unwise to do that.

Yes, that was a greeting, culturally conditioned. It is much like our handshake today.

Not odd in the least when you understand that the holy kiss was a form of greeting.

I am merely pointing out that if you are going to defend something as a command from God, then you should actually use the commands of God to do so. The "holy kiss" is a command, one that I think is culturally conditioned on the first century form of greeting. Furthermore, remember that my issue is not with hugging. It is with the context in which it is taking place.

 

Most people call it experience. I have seen it enough to know that it is unwise.

So? I don't either. I am not sure how that is relevant here.

Having grown up in a southern church that was small (and grew to large), hugging was not expected. Nor was it encouraged.

Apples and oranges. Hugging is very closely connected with sexual immorality. But even at that, I am not against hugging. It is the context that is important.

I don't remember much about kindergarten or first grade. But they probably were old enough to be your grandmother, and if you recall, that was one of my stipulations about hugging. But you also grew up in a different day and age, as did I.

Perhaps, but I hardly see how that is relevant here.

We do that all the time. We drive cars in public, but not at school. We talk loudly on cell phones in public, but not in school. We listen to the radio in public, but not in school. There is no problem with communicating something different in public, school, and private. They are different places with different purposes.

I agree. The difference here appears to be the definition of "appropriate way" and "appropriate time."

You have a greater faith in human depravity than I do. Having spent a lot of time around people, especially teenagers, and I pretty convinced that they don't know, or don't care.

This is true. And as you should understand by now, I have never recommending avoiding any touch. I wish you would read what I have said and respond to it.

I don't either, and I recommend this approach for everyone.

They probably sat on his lap. I have held children on my lap before. But that doesn't mean that Jesus went around hugging people.

And I am still waiting for those references that talk about Jesus regularly hugging people. This is now the third time I have asked and you won't respond. Were you wrong when you said that JEsus regularly hugged people?

 

What if your experience is wrong? I would prefer to guide my life not by experience by what scripture teaches and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I know scripture is always correct. I have seen many children who are wiser than their parents.

Living a life guided by the Holy Spirit requires sensitivity to God's leading which may mean immediately flee immediately or help even though it may make us feel uncomfortable. Think of Jesus and the woman at the well.

If we live a life of love for people we are not guided by fear. Perfect love cast out all fear. The righteous are bold as a lion.

Do you really believe that? My daughter hugs my wife and I a lot. It is sick to even think about such things with her. I did notice one time when she was leaving for a school event with some friends and they came inside our home for a short time. When she got ready to leave she gave both my wife and me big hugs before she left. Her friends had a surprised look on their face. She has non-Christian friends over all of the time. She is not afraid to tell them about Christ and the God who is.

I think it is more the issue that they do not care more than they do not know. I have met some who do not know, because they never experienced love in their own home. Love must be perfected constantly in our own homes. Over the years especially when I taught high school I noticed that when I had a problem with a student, most of the time it was useless to have contacted the parents because I had an even greater problem with the parents. It was amazing how many parents would endeavor to tell the faculty about their child in an effort to support the poor behavior of the child.

Why should we not be teaching appropriateness everywhere? Why just at home or in church? Josh McDowell clamed in one of his books that 25% of the kids in church youth groups are involved in sexual immorality. That tells me that the Bible is not being taught. Too many pastors avoid what the Bible explicitly talks about.

To answer your question: how could Jesus have put a child on his lap and not hug them? I cannot imagine Jesus doing anything inappropriate though. I cannot imagine Jesus hugging everyone he met. However I can imagine Jesus being more affectionate at times than the American public. People today are stone cold compared to even just a few years ago. Every child has his own room. Families do not work on the farm together as they once did. The divorce rate is outrageous. Sexual immorality is rampant. Parents are too busy to be frank and honest with their kids. Parents are complacent in their expectations of their children. Too many Christians are content to let their children get through school rather than produce excellence every time. Yet parents are busy buying things to replace love and transparency.

If we are to raise healthy kids I am not willing to wait for some young guy to be the first person to hug my daughter. Experience tells me that she will use our affection for her as a benchmark and not other experiences outside of our home. We are very real with her. We are honest about things when we do wrong and what should characterize our lives. She has been a witness to her teachers and friends. I am challenged by her strength and love for people. I did not grow up in the kind of home my wife and I have made.

I am convinced that when we walk with God and seek to be used by him in ways that are only His there will be times when we are stretched beyond our comfort zone. Missionaries experience that all the time.

There is a difference between simple affection and affections with sexual overtones. That is the reason why we must always be on the alert. Many times I have experienced women who want affection because of their needs. Their real need is love. In my lifetime I have had women tell me they want more and I have also told them I do not do such things. They get the message quite fast. I have had students who wanted my affection. I have always ignored that message and treat each student the same. They get the message. People who are inappropriate are also immature.

You may not feel the same way as I do but I am sure God has not given you the same ministry as He has given me. I am sure you have a different focus and different giftedness.

A firefighter cannot be afraid of fire but he must know how to control it and know when it is time to run. That is the same way I see ministry.

 

Then it's wrong. It has generally proven not to be time and time again.

I have determined to live life by the Scripture. Which brings me to this point: The absolute absence of any command of Scripture for middle or high school students to be hugging on campus proves my point beyond any doubt. God never commands someone to do what you are suggesting here. Your big emphasis on discipleship in other places (much appreciated) is here missing.

I totally agree, and see absolutely no relevance to this discussion.

Yes in the context in which it was said, it is absolutely true.

I agree. And if you take my statement in context, you will know that this is a completely false argument. I never said anything of the kind and you know it. (It does remind me though that very few here, especially you, have actually tried to address the arguments I made. Your arguments against me are all based on something I didn't say or on a misuse of Scripture).

All of which has nothing to do with love. There is a lot of hugging going on in homes where there is no love whatsoever. If we returned to a biblical definition of love, then we would not need to extend this conversation.

That's my point. Hugging in school is inappropriate and unnecessary. It does not need to be done. And when 25% of kids in church youth groups are involved in sexual immorality, we have a problem. And I think your position is furthering that by not teaching clearly on the appropriateness of hugging outside the family.

Very easily. I do it all the time. But even if Jesus did hug children, you have shown only a couple of instances of Jesus hugging someone. But you said it was a regular practice of his. And earlier you said you wanted to be biblical. Yet you won't show us the biblical basis for your statement.

Me either.

Me either.

Well sure, I can imagine it too. But do we really want to do theology and life by what we imagine Jesus might have said or done? I don't think so and I don't think you do.

And you don't think this is connected with inappropriate physical contact????

You shouldn't. I have never suggested any such thing.

I totally agree, but again fail to see the relevance. This is not about a comfort zone but about propriety and purity.

 

I guess you are right Pastor Larry, you couldn't possibly be wrong, therefore it must be me, or whoever you are disagreeing with at the time. After all, we all know you are never wrong and your motives are always correct. Anyone who sees a problem in what you say means that they have bad motives, again, you couldn't possibly be wrong, you are Pastor Larry! :BangHead: