Imminent Return of Christ

No, it is
not correct.

Yes, let us try again.

New vocabulary word: Apriori.

Apriori4 - before examination or
analysis

Example:
Flipping a coin the odds apriori are
50% head
50% tail

After the coin is flipped, and you got
a head, the odds are:
100% head
0% tail

Fact 1: 175 years ago, the coming
of the Lord was imminent.

Fact 2: The Lord did not come 175 years

Fact 2 never invalidates fact 1.

BUT, if the Lord cannot come now,
He has to wait 3½-years for the Antichrist
to reign; then the Coming of the Lord
is NOT imminent, is is 1260 days away.
Thus the imminency of the Coming of the
Lord is proof positive that Jesus
will come get the saints at the beginning
of the Day of the Lord (a 7-year long day)
and come in power and glory to defeat
the antichrist and set up a physical
Millinnial Kingdom at the end of the day.

Yes, you should fight imminency tooth
and nail, it destroys all postie arguments.

Here is imminent:

Revelation 22:7 (HCSB):

"Look, I am coming quickly! Blessed is the one who keeps the prophetic words of this book."

Revelation 22:12 (HCSB):

"Look! I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done.

Revelation 22:20 (HCSB):

He who testifies about these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

Maranatha!

 

Sorry, this only refers to the MANNER of His return, not the actual timing of it. When He comes it will be in a quick manner. This is not the same as happenning at any time. Changing the normal rendering of 'imminent' to save your doctrine doesn't help. His coming is not imminent and will not be until sometime after the midpoint of the 70th week.

 

Show me my error from scripture.

Show me where the 70th week is referred to as the tribulation period.
Jesus spoke only of the Great Tribulation that will not occur until the midpoint of the 70th week.

Show me where the Great Tribulation is equated with the wrath of God.

Its one thing to say I'm wrong, and another to back-up what you say with scripture.

 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Observations:

1. The idea that Christ could come at any moment was already a problem in the very early days of Christianity. Some actually taught that the resurrection had already come (II Tim. 2:18).

2. The great falling away and the revelation of the man of sin - called by Jesus and Daniel "the abomination of desolation" and by John the "anti-christ" - will precede the coming of Christ and our "gathering together unto him."

3. The "imminent coming" philosphy is a troublesome false doctrine.

4. Whereas Paul told the Thesslalonians he had taught them against the "imminency" heresy while he was with them and whereas he was with them only a month or a little more, we see that this is a most important and primary teaching of Christianity.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Mark,

2 thumbs up!

 

Correct parts of your observations are bolded:

</font>[/QUOTE]If the imminent coming philosophy were a
"troublesome false doctrine". How come
it is taught in the Bible so frequently?

The definition of the imminent coming:
in Revelation 22:20 (HCSB):

He who testifies about these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

Praise Jesus!

 

Yes, when Jesus comes He will come quickly. In Paul's words, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." In His own words His coming will be will be like a ligtening strike.

So what does any of that have to do with whether or not there are an events that must precede His coming?

Mark Osgatharp

 

Paul's words, "in a moment, in the twinkling of
an eye" were not said in reference to the
speed at which Jesus will come. The words,
"in a momemt, in the twinkling of an eye" refer
to the amount of time it takes to change your
old worn out human body into your grand eternal
body.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV1769):

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

I could say this then: "When I go skydiving, I am in freefall 'the moment' that my foot leaves the floor of the plane." From a physical standpoint, in one instant I am standing, the next I am falling. However, I do not intend to go skydiving anytime soon, and even if I did, events would have to take place before I could be skydiving, like strapping on the parachute, getting into the plane, taking off the runway, etc. Mark's statements above still stand.

They are germaine, too, because we are instantly changed just as Christ instantly appears, like the sudden blast from a trumpet. Nevertheless, Christ's "coming quickly" does not mean he is "arriving quickly." Look at the parable of the ten virgins--they knew the Groom was coming and were waiting with expectation, yet the Groom did not just appear--the cry went up in the city, and there was enough time for the 5 foolish virgins to hold a conversation with the 5 wise and go out shopping before the Groom showed up.

-Pluvivs

 

Early Christians understood 1 Corinthians 15:52 speaks of how quick our body shall all be changed at Christ's coming. In fact, Early Christians believed only one future of second coming of Christ at the end of the age. They believed, Christians' body shall be changed into immortality, and gathering together at Christ's coming at the end of the age- one future coming.

Often you notice my favorite verse at the conclusion or closing the post - Revelation 22:20. Rev. 22:20 is my favorite verse.

Does Rev. 22:20 saying it is 'pretrib' coming? Silence. Christ does not saying it is 'pretrib' coming. Rev. 22:20 speaks of His promise that He will be SURELY come again without delay, that means, He WILL BE SURELY COME AGAIN.

2 Peter chapter 3 is a good example of scoffers saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming?', in people's mind, they do not believe Jesus will come again. Same with flood, people do not believe Noah's warning about the coming flood. For over 1,000 years since after the creation, people never see rain in their time. That why, they do not believe Noah's warning for 120 years. I am sure, many people who often heard the 'old story' about Noah and the flood for 100 years in their time, they might have laughed on Noah for being built a huge wood boat on the dry land, they think he is fool. One day, after 120 years passed, the rain poured down, people was shocked to see rain, they were not expect of rain. Same with Christ's coming, they will not be expect of Christ's coming will be immediately as the thief in the night.

Christ's coming will be quick and our body shall be changed into immortality very quick.

Early Christians were expecting Christ might come anytime in their lifetime, but, it does not make them -pretrib. They believed Christ shall come at the end of the age - one coming. None of them hear two phases of the second advent, because that doctrine was not yet exist in their time.

I do expect Christ might come anytime in my lifetime, but, I do not know when Christ shall come again, we can do is be watch and be ready all the time, because we all shall face the judgement seat of Christ to judge our works. That why we must always be prepare for the judgment day. In other way, we do not know when we will die, maybe today, maybe tonight, we must always be prepare for our death, because we all shall face the judgment day to judge our works.

Pretribulation doctrine is still flaw and lack of evidence, because none verse find anywhere in the New Testament saying there will be two phases of the second advent.

Acts 1:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess 4:15-18; Rev. 1:7; Rev. 22:20; etc. all of these do not give us any hint that there is different or separate from the second advent. Neither these saying the rapture will be occur either 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier before the second advent.

Pretribulation doctrine is flaw, and have difficult to prove any verse saying, 'pretrib'. Pretrib have lot of holes and problems more than posttribulation.

Posttribulationism have fewer problems than pretrib does. Because postrib believes Christ shall come again at the end of the age - obivusly find in Matt 24:29-31.

There are so much overwhelm verses in the New Testament describe of the second coming at the end of the age.

Matthew chapter 13, 24, and 25 describe so very clear speak of the only one coming at the end of age. No way that you can prove anywhere in Matthew chapter 13, 24, and 25 give us there is two phases of the second advent, because Christ does not give us there are two phases of the second advent.

Matt 24:36,40,42 do not prove us these are 'pretrib', these are speak of our prepare for His coming will be immediately, we do not know when His coming shall be, we can do is be watch and be ready all the time, because He shall judge our works at the judgment day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

Yes, Paul said we would be changed in a moment and that will be at the last trump when Christ comes. He will come "quickly." "Quickly" does not mean "imminent." "Quickly" offers not support whatsoever to the idea of imminence.

Mark Osgatharp

 

DeafPostTrib you are so close to the truth. Just your timing is off.

Correct so far. So when was the end of the age?

I Cor 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

I Peter 1:20He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

1st century!

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die . Believest thou this?

Jesus brought immortality 2000 years ago.

Why should the scoffers expect they would see His coming in their lifetime? Because that is what the disciples taught. Jesus taught the same thing.

That would include the inspired writers.

Very true.

True. Nor two phases of the Kingdom!

And post-trib has more holes and flaws than preterism.

Preterist believe He did keep His word and came at the end of the age. Matt 24:1-31.

Agree. And the writers of the NT were still living in the Mosaic/Old Covenant Age. Heb. 8:13

Nor can you separate Matt 24 as some past and some future.

So close

 

I'm sorry, Sir,
you cannot have my word "Imminence".
I'm still angry cause some queers got
together and stole my word "gay" which
meant to be exceedingly joyful but now
"gay" means "queer".
I'm still angrycause some liberal press
thieves stole my word "Fundamentalist" away.
"Fundamentlaist
used to mean a movement in Protestant
Christianity that literally read the Bible.
Now "Fundamentalist" mean "bigot".

I'm sorry, my word "imminence" is not for
sale, cannot be stolen from me, for
"imminence" eternally means:
"can come at any time now to get me and
take me to heaven and leave behind the lost".
"Imminence instills hope for I know
in hope that Jesus will come to get me
if I die (and bring back my soul for
the resurrection) or come get me if the
rapture/resurreciton happens before i
die and i get to be raptured.

No Sir, my Hope and my word "Imminence"
are not for sale and will not be abandoned
cause of some cute words you might string
together.

No, I do not have to wait for a rapture
7-years or 3½-years
as the postribulation premillinnial-ests
say. No, I do not have to wait 1,000
years or more for a rapture
like the postmillinnial-ests say.
No, i didn't miss the rapture like the
preterists say.

Maranatha!

 

Hey Ed, guess what, YOUR definition of imminence is irrelevant to the discussion at hand: is the Rapture imminent or not. You have yet to post a single scripture that shows that Christ's coming is said clearly to be at any moment. You've posted verse after verse that show 1) we are to have an attitude of expectancy and 2) Christ's return will be in a quick manner and take place in a short amount of time. But no "any moment" verses at all! Why is that? Oh, I know! Imminence is a false doctrine that pre-tribs have to have to save their belief. Who cares what the Bible actually says!

 

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

Ed, I have never heard anyone interpret "falling away" to mean the "Rapture" until now. Certainly when God removes his people at his coming, the world will be grossly without Christian influence. However, the only group that CAN fall away are Christians (since the lost have nothing to fall from), and since the passage is TO Christians, it is safe to say that II Thess 2:3 is referring to apostasy inside of the Church/Christiandom, not the world general.

I Thess 5:3 is also pretty clear--at the time of this epistle's writting, there was beginning grave persecution, yet Paul says that "when" they say "peace and safety," then Christ comes. The picture of the pregnant woman is perfect--no one in the early stages knows the exact hour in which the child will come, only that if they are not watching carefully, they will not see the early signs and it will catch them by surprise.

The admonishment to watch and wait for the Lord means that, to those who ARE watching, they will "discern the signs of the times" and it will not be a surprise. In that way, Christ's coming will be imminent. But that means the discussion is on interpreting the "face of the sky" and world news in light of scripture, rather than what you are saying, Ed.

-Pluvivs

 

Actually, His return isn't far off. Although many of the signs have been occurring ever since He left, there seems now to be a convergence of these signs that has never been seen before, I.E. the jews having their own powerful sovereign nation in the land god promised them, the massive increase in knowledge and travel as prophesied to Daniel having occurred only in the last hundred years, worldwide instant communication, the European Union, the stage being set for a moneyless, electronic society. "Watch, and be ready!"

 

Imminence has to do with nearness. The Lord gave no preceeding signs for the rapture. That is why we say it could happen at any moment.

It is a theological position that is acquired through one's understanding of the rapture itself.

 

Amen, Brother David Daniel -- Preach it!

 

Pluvivs: //The admonishment to watch and wait for the Lord means that, to those who ARE watching, they will "discern the signs of the times" and it will not be a surprise.//

Exactly. Which means you have to know:

1. The signs that the last days continue
(i.e. the signs that the Chruch age still continues)
for example: wars and rumors of wars

2. The signs that the tribulation's antichrist
is coming
for example: peach starts to break out

3. There are no signs of the coming pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.

Pluvivs: //But that means the discussion is on interpreting the "face of the sky" and world news in light of scripture, rather than what you are saying, Ed.//

You lost me. This discussion is about "immeminency".
If we had a topic about reading the signs of the times,
I'd be glad to discuss what they signs of the times
are in light of scripture. But there are no signs
of what HAS TO BE prior to the pretribulation rapture,
i.e. the pretribulation rapture is imminent.