In Essentials Unity, In Non-essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity

HP: Could you inform the list as to what my ‘pelagianism’ you refer to consists of? That might prove to be very enlightening to the list.

 

It had to be Wesley...


I think Wesley was a very decieved man and his theology is dangerous, not to mention horrible. I believe he decieved a lot of people with his horrible theology.

Just show me from the Bible where it says there is an age of accoutibility.

Leave Wesley in the grave where he should be.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

HP: Why would you have to see proof in Scripture? Do you deny man is a moral agent? Did you have to find your proof in Scripture?

Dustin, God has granted to man a thing called reason, in which common sense univerally testifies to such an age. The Jews of the OT, without Scripture, clearly perceived of and understood the reality of such an age. To deny such an age exists is to deny one of the most basic universal truths of moral agency. While the actual age that it is achieved varies and is a matter of debate, there is no reasonable argument to deny such an age clearly exists.

 

I didn't affirm or deny anything, I just asked for where it said there was an age of accountability in the Bible.

I didn't know that OT Jews believed in that either. Enlighten me, show me where that is. It's interesting, in all honesty.

All I ask is you back up your claims with Scripture.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin


PS. OH NO!!! POST 666!!!! AHHHHH!!!!!! hahaha.

 

So you are saying our fallen nature -- our sinful nature has two parts to it.

#1. that which we "acquire" in this life through yielding to sin
#2. that which we are born with - (internal desire-propsenity/tendancy) to sin?


How did mankind come to get the fallen-sinful nature that we are born with?

How "strong" is it according to Scripure? Where do you find it in scripture?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Quote:
BR: #2. What change takes place "in our nature" at conversion using your model?

I am asking about the "change our nature" not necessarily the change in our relationship with God. You already stated that our sinful nature is comprised of BOTH our internal-inherited desire "propensity" to sin as well as our aqcuired habbits toward sin. Are you saying that there is "no change in our nature" at the New Birth - just a change in our relationship to God and His willingness to "aid us" in the battle against sin?

No "NEW Creation"??



Quote:
BR: #3. What is the difference in the "nature" of the person pre-conversion vs post conversion?

Change in our attitude -- but no change in our "nature"??

If in either case we are free to "will" either to serve God or serve sin - (pre-conversion and post-convesion) then how is the previous state "bondage"?? How -- from what are we "freed" in terms of bondage??

Freed from debt -- ok

But what about the slavery - the bondage?

So you are saying that BEFORE the new birth we were not "enabled" to pursue righteousness? The new birth "enables" us through faith to make right choices?

Ok

 

Quote:
BR: #2. What change takes place "in our nature" at conversion using your model?

I am asking about the "change our nature" not necessarily the change in our relationship with God. You already stated that our sinful nature is comprised of BOTH our internal-inherited desire "propensity" to sin as well as our aqcuired habbits toward sin. Are you saying that there is "no change in our nature" at the New Birth - just a change in our relationship to God and His willingness to "aid us" in the battle against sin?

No "NEW Creation"??



Quote:
BR: #3. What is the difference in the "nature" of the person pre-conversion vs post conversion?

Change in our attitude -- but no change in our "nature"??

If in either case we are free to "will" either to serve God or serve sin - (pre-conversion and post-convesion) then how is the previous state "bondage"?? How -- from what are we "freed" in terms of bondage??

Freed from debt -- ok

But what about the slavery - the bondage?

So you are saying that BEFORE the new birth we were not "enabled" to pursue righteousness? The new birth "enables" us through faith to make right choices?

Ok free

 

Quote:
BR: #2. What change takes place "in our nature" at conversion using your model?

I am asking about the "change our nature" not necessarily the change in our relationship with God. You already stated that our sinful nature is comprised of BOTH our internal-inherited desire "propensity" to sin as well as our aqcuired habbits toward sin. Are you saying that there is "no change in our nature" at the New Birth - just a change in our relationship to God and His willingness to "aid us" in the battle against sin?

No "NEW Creation"??



Quote:
BR: #3. What is the difference in the "nature" of the person pre-conversion vs post conversion?

Change in our attitude -- but no change in our "nature"??

If in either case we are free to "will" either to serve God or serve sin - (pre-conversion and post-convesion) then how is the previous state "bondage"?? How -- from what are we "freed" in terms of bondage??

Freed from debt -- ok

But what about the slavery - the bondage?

So you are saying that BEFORE the new birth we were not "enabled" to pursue righteousness? The new birth "enables" us through faith to make right choices?

Ok free from guilt -- that part I think I get in your model.

It is the "change in nature" and the "ability" (what is ENABLED vs what WAS DISABLED prior to the new Birth) that I am trying to get you to define in your model.

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: Yes.

HP: The evil effects of these natural propensities started with the advent of sin and God shortening the lifespan of man. The new birth is to a large degree a mystery. Just the same there are some things we do in fact understand with our hearts and minds. Nature, in its most common usage, speaks to the natural, to the physical. We acquire our natural propensities from our natural parents. If we are born with a natural propensity, it is a given that it comes to us as a product of our physical makeup and that from our parents. We are certainly born physically depraved as a product of the human race in which the effects of sin have been passed on to us by natural generation as a physical descendent of our parents.

HP: Very strong, yet just the same it cannot be so strong that it forces or coerces the will, eliminating free will IF God blames, praises, or punishes man for their actions. No doubt many are born completely enslaved to the natural propensities they are born with. We would classify those individuals as mentally handicapped, or mentally impaired. We might place such individuals in protective custody so as to protect themselves from themselves and to ensure the safety of others around them in certain instances, yet no reasonable just person would hold them eternally accountable for circumstances beyond their control. We pity such cases as this, but do not hold them morally accountable for their actions, at least in a fair and just society. Such individuals are not moral agents, and such are not accountable to moral law. Scripture illustrates this point by the following passages. “To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Understanding of the intrinsic value of the command is at the heart of moral accountability. Scripture also tells us that “where there is no law, sin is not imputed.” If one has absolutely no comprehension of what is required, God does not hold them morally accountable.

 

HP: You define what you mean by 'in our nature,' or the nature you believe we are born with and what it consists of, and then I will know better how to respond to your questions.

 

HP: Those are indeed some railing accusations you throw out at a man used mightily of God. I for one believe that if you are to throw out such utter contempt with what is up until this point mere baseless allegations, you owe the list a clear explanation of those charges.

Possibly you might read the title of this thread before you respond, and then tell us how your words fit the word 'charity.'

 

Regarding the inherited sinful nature - inherited moral weakness - inherited tendancy to sin

Quote:
BR: How "strong" is it according to Scripure? Where do you find it in scripture?

But the question is more to the "inherited sinful nature" that you admit tha we get from birth. Where do you find the Bible speaking to that inherited desire to sin that we all have and telling us "how strong it is"?

in Christ,

Bob

 

From post 19

Dustin gives us post 22 that appears to have relevance to this point I raised

 

Utter contempt? I don't know, I didn't think it was THAT bad.

Strong disagreement with Wesley? Absolutly!

Wesley's doctrine of "entire sanctification", "preveinient grace" and his joke of an argument about predestination are clear evidence that the man had little understanding of the Scriptures. Those are the two that poke out in my mind right now, but there are many others.

You can read them here:http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/topic.htm

That's a bunch of his sermons posted at the Wesley Center website.

I wouldn't base any conclusion made in this discussion on what John Wesley says.

Again, all I ask is that you show me from the Bible where it says there is an age of accountibility, not what John Wesley thinks it says.

 

To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not to HIM IT IS SIN - James 4:17

Whatever is not of FAITH is sin Rom 14:23

Wesley is rock solid with scripture - as usual.

James 4:17
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Isaiah 7:15-16
15"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.
16"For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.


Wesley 10 -- Calvinists 0

 

I don't follow the point your making. I'm doing about 7 things at once, sorry.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

The "age of accountability" has to do with the Child mastering abstract concepts like the knowledge of right and wrong.

 

OK, I got that.

What is the immediate context of those verses, and do you have anymore?


Dustin

 

How many do you need?

 

HP: Not simply mastering abstract concepts such as right and wrong, but understanding them according to their intrinsic worth, apart from punishment or rewards. (Unless that is what you mean by ‘mastering’ )

A dog can master certain behavior that is acceptable or unacceptable, but an animal, not being a moral agent, does not master or understand the intrinsic value of the demands or commands. It only reacts to punishment or praise.

That is how we begin to train our children, but we hope that in doing so they come to a place in understanding the intrinsic worth of our demands.

The age of accountability is when one knows right from wrong due to their intrinsic values apart from punishment or rewards.