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Individual Election

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member

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  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    I am not certain I agree with this statement which is an objection he brings up:

    The article was quite choppy to be honest, and filled with question marks where there should be none, which throws the reader off somewhat.

    If the above quote is saying, which it seems to, that if one desires to be saved, if he is not elect, then he cannot be no matter what, or; "he cannot be saved." I would readily disagree with that statement. Actually I make a purposed stand against this, and would never preach such a thing to the lost.

    Why I would disagree is I see no one but the elect who desire to be saved, set free, brought to repentance, regenerate &c within the Scriptures. The mere fact that a person desires this is a showing of God drawing said person to Him and that this person is His chosen, elect. Too many people are put into fear with such a doctrine, and they need to rest upon God's Word that they are His because they've been drawn to Him and have been born again.
     
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    That quote is from one of the objections to election. Here's his answer. What do you think of it.

     
  4. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    Yes I realize it is an objection. I mentioned this (the quote given) was an objection in my initial remark, which I am also answering against, as he did.

    His answer is OK although it is quite deficient in my opinion. I see nothing consoling or evangelistic in it. I think we have the too common objective among Cals to condemn some as non elect, and to press the issue upon mens minds.

    If the document is to be read by those who are lost, or would be, there is little hope given in his answer, no Gospel in it whatsoever, which is one reason I gave my answer.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member

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    I see what you are saying,but I do not think this is meant to address evangelism.as much as He is trying to equip saints to answer objections.
    He is setting forth and walking someone through individual election.....more along the lines of those here on BB who say election is a corporate idea,rather than individual.
     
  6. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    I understand his objective, but even with this his answer could still be a bit better.

    As far as the aberration of arm/non-cal errant teachings concerning "corporate" election, I agree with you that it is unScriptural. It is also a deficient rationalization and reasoning, based upon willful misinterpretations of Scripture.

    One favored passage is that of Romans 8:29, and the assertion is that God only predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son, and not to salvation.

    Well, this too is how some remain willfuly ignorant to the fact that the person being spoken of was saved, and chosen to be saved for this purpose, or to the end to be like Christ. It is saying in essence "This is why you were predestined to salvation, to the end that you will be conformed to the image of His Son" and such an conclusion is based upon Scripture interpreting Scripture.

    Anyhow, it's ridiculous semantics on their part, and proves nothing to support their views; "We were only predestined to be like Jesus!" We who? The ones predestined for salvation? The saved? The elect? The ones God Himself has chosen? These could never be like His Son if they were not chosen to be saved in the first place.

    Their theology also fails to look honestly at passages where God did choose us to salvation, such as in 1 Thess. 1:4, 2 Thess. 2:13-14, Ephesians 1:4, Acts 18:10 and more. If God already had much people in the city, they were His chosen and elect, and thus these would also, who are already elected by God, also be conformed to the image of His Son. One has to overlook and wrest many Scriptures of individualistic election to accept corporate election, or to restrict it to such a teaching. Doing this is for one reason only, it's an attempt to avoid the fact that it is God who chooses. It's missing the forest for the trees.

    There is a serious rejection of the doctrine of God doing the choosing, and it is a greatly disliked teaching. In addition, there is also a willful ignorance of seeing that Gentiles are in fact called elect, with many passages proving this, but a few have shown they refuse to look at these Scriptures declaring Gentiles as elect. At this time some still refuse to open their eyes and see they are incorrect and are teaching error by refusing plain truths revealed by the Holy Spirit.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup: I think webdog tries to make this case based upon a half truth.
    The half truth being that many if not all the verses dealing with "an elect remnant"
    were spoken of OT. Israel! We can agree in that because of apostasy and covenant breaking that did take place . Not all Israel was part of the elect remnant.
    Failing to understand that everyone that is saved has been elected before creation leads to a wrong idea.
    I think B.Keach was targeting this kind of objection. Yes...it can be added to or built upon...but I enjoy reading from saints who saw the exact same truths in their day,and faced the same objections
     
    #7 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2012
  8. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    One good thing is we can build upon what he has said in truth with more truthful conclusions.

    It's not difficult to see why some refuse to admit to the proofs that are given to them. They cannot admit to it, it's beyond them to do so.

    What would they have to do if they admitted the passages given them do say Gentiles are concisely and specifically elect? How's that crow taste? It's nothing more than pride and willful ignorance to refuse to admit this truth bro.
     
  9. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    God does not draw (drag) all mankind but just his elect because all that he calls he predestinates, calls, justifies, and glorifies, Rom 8:30.
     
  10. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    All scripture was divinly inspired by God and written to his elect only for instruction as to how they should live their lives here in this world. Eternal salvation took place on the cross for all that God gave to his Son, John 6:37-41.
     
  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    I hope you understand I'm considered a "calvinist."
     
  12. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    It's not only written for the sole purpose of instruction on how to live. John also says these are written that we might believe. A see at least a dual purpose.
     
  13. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    Yes, but you probably know that believing is not the cause of ones eternal salvation. Even our believing is of God.
     
  14. Don

    Don Well-Known Member

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    Forest, would you consider yourself supralapsarian or infralapsarian?
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member

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    Don....Forest is a Primitive Baptist, not a Calvinist.
     
  16. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    basic problem is that we need to realise that its only thru DIVINE REVEALTION that we can know just how our salvations is wrought by God...

    cals tend to use the scriptures in totality as regarding the fall/sin/depravity/election etc

    While non cals/arms tend to do that, and add human reasoning/understanding to boot!
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member

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    This thread reminds me of a circular firing squad.

    Individual Election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy as children of wrath. Individual Election for salvation is conditional, based on God crediting or not our faith in Christ.

    One says no need to preach, everyone chosen by God will be saved, and other says everyone desiring to be saved is elect. Bang bang.
     
  18. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    God determines who receives the eternal life that He grants to those whom He elects in christ!

    what gets us saved is the Lord working on our behalf, faith "only" means by which we get and receive that gift of eternal life in Christ!
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member

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    True but notice this does not address the issue of when or why God elects individuals for salvation, i.e simply mixing in truth as diversion.

    Also true, and also beside the point.

    Whose faith, ours or God's gift via irresistible grace? More code words and dancing around the issue.
    We are saved by grace alone through our faith alone, and not by works.
    Our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. It is God alone who credits our faith alone as righteousness or not. It is God alone who puts us in Christ, the sanctifying work by the Spirit.
     
  20. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    Seems pretty easy to me, Eh?
     
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