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Infant Salvation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ReformedBaptist, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    There is a problem with this. God is just, and ALL sin goes punished. He doesn't pardon some on "wholly evangelical principles" (whatever that means). At least he got the part right that they have not commited any actual sin themselves. Where he got it wrong is inherited sin. We are responsible for our sin, and our sin alone. The fallacy that I hear repeated throughout many churches in America is "we aren't sinners because we sin...we sin because we are sinners". That is the most ridiculous statement many intlligent men make. Substitute any sin for "sinner" and it's plain foolishness. "I'm not a drunkard because I drink too much...I drink too much because I'm a drunkard", or "I'm not an adulterer because I cheated on my wife...I cheated on my wife because I"m an adulterer".

    I just finished reading a passage in Ezekiel 18:4 that pertains to this discussion..."...the person who sins is the one who will die".

    The infant goes to Heaven because God judges based on sin WE commit, not Adam. It is appointed unto man ONCE to die...and then the judgement.
     
    #21 webdog, Aug 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2007
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Careful brother Bob, I did not say you could not post. I asked you to stay on the topic of this thread and not divert its subject as you did in the other thread. I also asked for your good Christian spirit which you affirmed in another post.

    Are you suggesting that I want to kill you? Please. Place your stock in the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia if you will. I do not. Now, I have indulged your bunny trail long enough and wish to get back on subject. Please cooperate in that regard. I have also indulged to the point of quoting extensively from Phillip Shaff's History of the Christian Church on this subject.
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    So now, you have to retract some of your refuting and accept part of what I posted. Well, it came from the same source as the rest.

    Apology or not?



    What you really mean is that you had to eat crow and admit what I posted was true. IMO

    You just quoted what I quoted from it.


    You have been refuted and had to admit to your mistake by posting Phillip Schaff's History of the Christian Church regarding Augstine's opinion on infant damnation is illuminating.


    Which was what I posted in the first place. You also need to go to the other forum and admit you made a mistake.
     
    #23 Brother Bob, Aug 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2007
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Certainly, if it makes you happy. I rejected, if you re-read, the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia. I did not realize the second part of excerpted from Phillip Schaff's history, which I find informative. I also allowed this divergence for honesty. The excerpt you quoted is not enough. Everyone needs to read the entire section to get the full opinion of Shaff on the matter, as well as the footnotes.

    You have attempted to throw contempt on Calvinist theolgy through the discussion of infant salvation. You have failed. Augustine's belief in infant damnation (which I stated before I didn't know what he thought about it, but now I do) had anything to do with his teaching on predestination. Shaff rightly poitns out his belief on infant damnation, apparantly was his belief, had to do with the doctrine of necessity of baptism for salvation.

    Do you see that brother Bob or are you going to insist that its calvinist principles that drive a belief in infant damnation?
     
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    The emphasis was made a long time before Bro Bob came along. You had to back up, on part of what I posted, when all I posted came from same source.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    **sigh, must we really start this again Bob?
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Is that an answer? If so, it doesn't make sense to me. Do you see that Augustines apparant belief in infant damnation had to do with, according to Schaff, his belief regarding infant baptism and not predestination. It was Calvin that brought ideas AWAY from infant damnation.
     
  8. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    All right all, I will get back to topic and post soon what I previously said I would post. I will no longer be responding to Brother Bob who insists on hijacking my thread. :BangHead:
     
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Nope, I will leave you now.

    When I made a mistake, I apologized. Something inside of me causes me too.
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    The way in which I believe infants to be saved.

    Spurgeon noted in his sermon that some suppose the reason for infant salvation is that the infant in innocent. I do not believe such a thing because the Scripture does not teach it. The Scripture teaches in 1 Corinthians 15:22 that "For as in Adam all die..." All of Adam's posterity was represented by him when he sinned, and all fell in Adam. When Adam fell, he fell for all the human race.

    On this point Spurgeon said,
    And he is quite right. And less we cry foul or unfair to the biblical doctrine of the imputation of Adam's guilt to all his posterity, let us remember that we also have another Head, Jesus Christ the righteous, whose obedience and righteousness is imputed to His posterity. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Therefore, if any infant be saved, it is not because of natural innocence in them. One of the most obvious evidences of the imputation of original guilt is the fact that an infant may die. The Scirpture says, "The wages of sin is death." On account of whose sin does the infant suffer the wage of sin? Is it there own? We cannot suppose that. No, it must be orignial guilt.

    More in the next post...
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I touched very briefly on this subject. In theology what I am describing is called federal headship.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This says nothing of original sin. It is appointed unto ALL men once to die (in Adam). In Christ, all are made alive (spiritually). Using this verse to support Augustinian original sin would naturally lead to universalism.
    Correct...infants are not "innocent". They are "not guilty". If they were truly innocent, they wouldn't fall under the curse. "The wages of sin is death" is speaking about spiritual death, as the rest of the verse qualifies "...BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". In Adam all die physically...but those who die spiritually die due to their own sin. Since sin is the transgression of Law, without knowledge of Law, they are not innocent...but found not guilty.
     
  13. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    With original guilt being established by Scripture, that in Adam all die, even those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin, we must go on to ask, then how is an infant saved?

    In the exact same manner as an adult and under no other Gospel but the Gospel of Christ. Infants enter heaven the same way we do, through Jesus Christ. None here will likely believe an infant can be saved through baptism, and we (reformed Baptists) affirm no such thing.

    What I believe is that the infant is saved because it is elect. This is the selfsame reason anyone, infant or adult, is saved. As it is written,

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

    Sometimes Romans 8:29-30 is referred to as the golden chain of redemption, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

    Certainly it is not a stetch of Scripture truth to include infants in the foreknowledge (fore-love) and foreordination of God. Our Lord Jesus, slain from the foundation of the world, purchased with His own blood elect sons and daughters of both infants and adults.

    And we would not dare to say that the infant is saved apart from regeneration. Christ our Lord has said, "Ye must be born again." And so must they. The infant is elect for no reason other than what the Scripture declares, "according to the good pleasure of His will." And is called in death, justified, and glorified by the operation of God no different than we are. On this point Spurgeon said,

    Amen and Amen.
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You have single handedly eliminated faith as a requirement for salvation, then. Infants do not possess the ability to have faith, as faith comes by understanding, and that from the Word of God. This is hyper calvinism, and the only logical conclusion one who holds to Augustinian original sin must come to. I'll take Scripture at face value, that we are saved by Grace...THROUGH FAITH.
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    To begin to dig into the doctrine of original sin would be to take this thread in a different direction. It is certainly a worthy topic, but the use of the doctrine was in an explaination of infant salvation. Perhaps after I finish the discussion of infant salvation we can talk about orginal sin.
     
    #35 ReformedBaptist, Aug 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2007
  16. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I admire your well-reasoned responses.

    2. Commenting on Romans 5:12-19, Dr. Millard Erickson, professor of Theology at Baylor university, makes this observation:

    3. Augustine was in error and so were many of the Church Fathers. They were fallible men.
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I will take your response as a passionate reply to what you believe. I simply disagree with your conclusion brother in what I have "single handedly" done.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Can they really be separated?
     
  19. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Then what about the infants? Where do they spend eternity? The burden of proof is on you, my brother.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I don't mind disagreement. I can't see how one portion of humanity can be saved by grace through faith...and Scripture tells us this is the only mean for the spiritually dead to attain salvation...and God gives a free pass to another group of humanity, overlooking sin and the need on the sinners part to repent. This would make God less good, for accepting sin apart from repentance...meaning He would cease to be God.
     
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