Inspiration vs Preservation

[MISSIONARY]

I have read a lot of posts where there is debate about how this error occurred or that error occurred.

First I believe that God inspired His Word to those original writers under the power of the Holy Spirit. They wrote without error controlled by the Holy Spirit.

Most people agree the originals were inspired. The problem comes in with the copies. Are they inspired. Well, terminology, inspired refers to the original manuscripts.

But, how can we believe that God who inspired the originals, would not preserve, another term,
meaning that, copies are not inspired like the originals, but are kept by God without error.

I can't believe God would go to the trouble to inspire His Word in the begining only to allow man to corrupt it.

The thing I see in all these discussions is that the Power of God to preserve His Word is not mentioned.

It seems that now sinful man has the power to decide what is God's Word and what is not.

I still think that God is in charge. Especially when it comes to His Word, The Truth.

[snip]

The enemy since the beginning, in the garden of Eden has tried to corrupt the Word, Hath God said?

[snip]

Your comments will be appreciated,
Missionary

Comments which could be perceived as inflammatory haev been snipped.

[ January 11, 2006, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Be careful folks - because of its nature this thread will be subject to immediate closure and deletion if we discuss anything other than the difference between preservation and inspiration.

 

[HankD]

Almost no one has a problem with inspiration.
God gave His word and in the giving it was perfect in every "jot and tittle".

Preservation is the problem. Now we are entering into the realm of human error. God did not rescind the law of deterioration of perishble things such as paper, parchments, leather, etc upon which these perfect documents were written.

Therfore the need for copies.
Therfore scribal errors.

God nowhere promises that these copies would be perfect, in fact He strongly warns folks about making changes with dire consequences resulting.

This fact is evidenced by the array of thousands of manuscripts with scribal errors.

Most of these errors are fixable because of the proliferation of said manuscripts.

Then there is the human task of translation of these preserved (extant) copies.
Enter more human error.

Every time a new translation of the Word of God (from the copies of the originals) is introduced into the world it is followed by a history of corrections both scribal (as new mss evidence is discovered) or unworthy translational choices or mistakes at the hand of the typesetter (The "wicked" Bible of 1631 as an example), etc.

Take for instance the Latin Vulgate which appeared in the 3-4th century from the hand of Jerome and went through major corrections until the mid 1700's (Vallarsi's Clementine).

The printing press made things much easier for us.

The King James version of the Bible (post printing press) for instance was corrected several times with hundreds of changes made from 1613 until 1769 (Benjamin Blayney edition), a much shorter time.

Even with the advent of the computer, human error creeps in. Modern versions follow the same pattern as the Vulgate and the KJV.

Initial publication followed by a history of revisions.

Human error in dealing with mss copies and translations of the Word of God from these copies is a fact of life.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

The error seems to be in the application of the terms.

Inspiration - original autographs.

Preservation - copies of the original autographs

Derivation - translation of the copies of the original autographs into a receptor language.

If you try to misapply the terms to the wrong subset, you will only increase your confusion.

 

[nate]

I would suggest that God has preserved His Words in the original languages. But not as some would have us think. There are those who wish for one mss completely without error to be extant today.But this does not exist. I believe James White is correct when he says God gave us the text today through errors. The errors give us a check and balance and using textual critiscism we can discern the correct readings.

 

[LRL71]

Inspiration applies only to the original autographs since it was through men (apostles, prophets) that God chose to use to write down the Scriptures under 'inspiration' (God-breathed).

Preservation applies to the extant manuscripts, but preservation did not 'providentially' nor 'miraculously' keep the manuscripts from errors to creep into the text of the OT or NT when they were copied. There isn't a promise by God to preserve the Word of God from manuscript errors, nor is there a 'perfect' text or body of manuscripts. Textual criticism attempts to reconstruct the text of the Greek NT by evaluating the manuscript evidence. There are two 'major' models that are practiced in textual criticism, either with the method (eclectic/critical) that the 'older' manuscripts are better or with the method (Majority text) that the Byzantine family of manuscripts takes priority.

 

[MISSIONARY]

So Almighty God inspired His Word in the beginning and then took His hand off of it and allowed sinful man and even perphaps our enemy to corrupt it.

I cannot believe that you would think God would go to the trouble to INSPIRE His Word if He didn't plan on preserving it.

As was said all we have now are copies, by your standard all are corrupt and it is up to sinful man to decide what goes in as the Word of God and which stays out.

That puts man in power over the Word of God. No I say God is still in control over everything as in all-powerful and that includes His Word.

Sorry friend, If God can INSPIRE His Word, He can and would certainly PRESERVE His Word.

Missionary

 

[MISSIONARY]

To continue, there are many manuscripts with errors and many "Bibles"with error, but God has PRESERVED His Word for us today. The question is to which Bible is this preserved version.

Missionary

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by MISSIONARY:
To continue, there are many manuscripts with errors and many "Bibles"with error, but God has PRESERVED His Word for us today. The question is to which Bible is this preserved version.

Missionary

Where in the Scriptures does it say that God would preserve His Word in one volume?

 

[4His_glory]

One more thing, where in the Scriptures does it tell us how God would preserve His Word. It certainly speaks of perservation, but I would like you to tell me where it says this must be done in one volume, or how it would be done for that matter.

 

[Deacon]

Originally posted by MISSIONARY:
To continue, there are many manuscripts with errors and many "Bibles"with error, but God has PRESERVED His Word for us today. The question is to which Bible is this preserved version.

Missionary

Well as you brought it up...

An even more telling question would be, "What single manuscript contains the preserved text?"

And who has the authority to decide?

Rob

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by MISSIONARY:
So Almighty God inspired His Word in the beginning and then took His hand off of it and allowed sinful man and even perphaps our enemy to corrupt it.

Of course not! Why would you say such a thing? God inspired His word, and He Providentially preserved it. That is easily proven by the fact we still have it today.

I cannot believe that you would think God would go to the trouble to INSPIRE His Word if He didn't plan on preserving it.

I can't believe you would make such a baseless and untrue accusation. Everybody on this forum believes God preserved His word.

As was said all we have now are copies, by your standard all are corrupt and it is up to sinful man to decide what goes in as the Word of God and which stays out.

Yes, we still have copies (copies of copies of copies) of God's word. And, yes, some of them contain scribal errors, just as the KJV contains some typos (over 1000 have been corrected from 1611 through 1769). But we still have God's words. A few (very few) scribal errors do no invalidate God's promise. He promised to preserve His word and He did.

That puts man in power over the Word of God.

Nonsense! It is by the Sovereign Promise of God that His word was preserved and is still with us today.

No I say God is still in control over everything as in all-powerful and that includes His Word.

And so does everybody on this forum. For you to insinuate that some don't is dishonest.

Sorry friend, If God can INSPIRE His Word, He can and would certainly PRESERVE His Word.

He can and He did. We all believe that.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by MISSIONARY:
To continue, there are many manuscripts with errors and many "Bibles"with error, but God has PRESERVED His Word for us today. The question is to which Bible is this preserved version.

There are over 1000 changes in the KJV from 1611 through 1769. Every edition is different. There were two, different, editions printed in 1611. Which one is "perfect" according to your definition?

 

[tinytim]

Here is my "official" doctrinal statement concerning the Bible, feel free to pick it apart:

"Men, divinely inspired, penned the Holy Bible. It is infallible and inerrant in communicating the truth God wants humanity to know . Every word in the originals was exactly what God had intended to share with humanity. It is an eternal gift from God to us, so that we may know the way of salvation.It is the ultimate standard by which all human conduct and doctrines should be measured. Even though inspiration and strict inerrancy can only be claimed by the original manuscripts, we can rest assured that God, through his divine preservation, has given us copies and translations that are inerrant and inspired in a derivative sense, in that they accurately reflect the originals. Therefore the translations and copies have the same authority as the originals."

Tim Barnhouse

 

[Hope of Glory]

You can find the message of salvation even in the New World "Translation".

Every major text, and as far as I know, every manuscript is consistent in the salvation message: Believe (aorist; punctiliar) and you will (not may; indicative) be saved.

However, beyong the basic message of salvation, how about everything else?

Well, the originals are inspired. The rest are preserved. I think the enemy tried to destroy them, and as the end times near, knowledge is increasing.

We have the ability to sift through thousands of manuscripts and compare them and come up with a consistent text. Hopefully, those who are compiling them are doing so prayerfully, and are building up the work they or others have already done.

 

[MISSIONARY]

To quote the Lord, "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt PRESERVE THEM FROM THIS GENERATION FOR EVER"

If God preserves His Word, then it has to be perfect! If man were in charge as you seem to declare, then I would go along with you and say that we only have a book that contains the Bible with errors.

Missionary

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The Psalm 12 debate has beed rehashed here and on numerous other platforms many times with no consensus.

Does it refer to God's word or His people? That debate will go on until the Lord returns.

That being the case it is not the best proof text for this issue.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Psalm 12:5-7 (KJV1611 Edition):

5 For the oppression of the poore, for
the sighing of the needy, now will I arise
(saith the Lord,) I will set him
in safetie from him that puffeth at him.
6 The wordes of the Lord are pure wordes:
as siluer tried in a fornace of earth
purified seuen times.
7 Thou shalt keepe them, (O Lord,)
thou shalt preserue them+, from this
generation for euer.

Translator's Margin Note:
+ Hebr. him i, every one of them.

Obviously the stray 'i' is a error in
this KJV1611 Edition.

What this Translator's Margine Note says
is that the translators found
a variation among the Hebrew
sources suggests that the following
is a good reading for Psalm 12:7

7 Thou shalt keepe them, (O Lord,)
thou shalt preserue him, every one
of them, from this generation for euer.

BTW, both the main KJV1611 Reading and
the alternate KJV1611 Reading are a part
of the Text(s) Received by the KJV1611
Translators.

 

[robycop3]

The fact is that Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic do NOT translate perfectly into English. However, none of that is lost on GOD, who created all language to begin with.

We have a combo of inspiration/preservation in our Bibles today. I believe that God caused every valid version to be made according to His will, as He caused/allowed the target translational receptors to change.

And even IF Psalm 12:7 actually was referring to God's words, He was not in the least language-specific, let alone version-specific.

 

[mioque]

MISSIONARY
"If God preserves His Word, then it has to be perfect!"
"
Do you have a specific Hebrew/Aramaïc Old Testament + Koine Greek New Testament in mind as being the perfect one?