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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    "Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt offering, or the red heifer, or any of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacles, or the dedication? No, because, though those were like the OLD HEAVENS AND EARTH TO THE JEWISH BELIEVERS, THEY (THE HEAVENS AND EARTH) HAVE PASSED AWAY, AND WE NOW LIVE UNDER NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, so far as the dispensation of Divine teaching is concerned. The Substance is come and the shadow has gone—and we do not remember it."
     
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  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Where exactly in the O.T. are the various sacrifices and rituals described as being 'heaven and earth'? Where in Holy Writ are we given to understand that either Jehovah or the Israelites regarded them as such?
    The writer says that 'We now live under new heavens and new earth AS FAR AS THE DISPENSATION OF DIVINE TEACHING IS CONCERNED.' In other words, we are not living in the NH&NE in any other respect. I am sure the writer (Spurgeon?) would be appalled by the application you would be tending to put upon it.

    That the Substance has come and the shadow has gone is, of course, entirely correct and we look forward to our Lord's return at the end of the age to usher in the real NH&NE. The sacrifices and rituals became obsolete and ready to disappear at Calvary where they were fulfilled.
     
    #2 Martin Marprelate, Jul 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    When a view desires substantiation, it can be found even by ripping quotes out of context from those who would be decisively opposed that view.
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Is this Creation, the one described in Genesis 1 and 2, coming to an end?
     
  5. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Any quotation can always be facily claimed to be out of context. At any rate, given your OP in the other thread, you might want to apply your comment to yourself.
     
  6. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    What point are you trying to make with this post?
     
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  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Apples and oranges.

    I made no out of context claims on any thread I generated.

    Rather, I have taken exact documented quotes from the article in context that the respondents to the thread not be enamored by my own views but attend to the views of the writer of the article.

    What you have quoted from was a partial statement from a man who would not even consider an endorsement of Preterist views, and attempt to show support for that view.

    That is as a farmer describing which cow in the herd needs veterinary attention but the vet treats a pig, because it had four legs, ate with its head down, and was black and white.

    Some quotes may seem to be accurate, yet be as foreign from the truthful presentation as a cow is from a pig - may look the same, but alien to each other.
     
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  8. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You are probably right. Spurgeon is more in line with your thinking than with my current thinking. But my point was to show that the idea of New Heavens and New Earth being metaphorical, not literal, language did not originate with Preterism.

    In fact the concept of a metaphorical understanding of Heaven and Earth is found in the OT.

    Deuteronomy 31:30 (NKJV) Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song until they were ended: 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. (See also Isaiah 1:1-2)


    Who is God addressing? Israel, not physical heavens and earth.

    See also Isaiah

    And I have put my words in thy mouth,
    And I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand,
    That I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth,
    And say unto Zion, Thou art my people. -- Isa 51.16


    Notice especially the third line.
    That I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth,

    Those two events, that you imagine as being millenia apart, actually happen at the same time. Take a look at Isa. 65

    14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit.
    15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord GOD will slay you, And call His servants by another name;
    16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth Shall bless himself in the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Shall swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My eyes.
    17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. - Isa. 65.14-17


    Notice especially the two concurrent events.

    1. Gods servants are called by a new name - Christians.
    2. The creation of new heavens and new earth.
     
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I was unclear.

    I was talking about you taking the apostle Paul out of context.
     
  10. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    And, no, I was not trying to conjure up Spurgeon's support for Preterism. The Biblical support is all I need.
     
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  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    No, "the world abides forever". That is my understanding.
     
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  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Will there ever be a time when men quit physically dying, and live in righteousness and peace forever?
     
  13. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Admittedly this is a hard question. But, from what I see in the Bible, I cannot say that it wont. The melting of the elements cannot be physical elements like we think of them.

    I am just connecting the dots that I see in the Bible. I am always open to other plausible but Scriptural alternatives.
     
  14. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    See my answer to MM.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    What will happen to you, when you die? Is that it? Do you go to 'heaven'? Will you see Jesus as He is? etc. You get the gist . . .
     
  16. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    The New Heaven and New Earth that I anticipate will be redeemed from sin.
     
  17. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    To be absent from the body is to be present with Lord. Yes, I will see Jesus as He is.
     
  18. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    The New Heaven and Earth is redeemed from sin.

    But we must be careful to get all of our concepts of the NH & E from Scripture.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    This claim may have traction if you can cite the quote where I took "the apostle Paul out of context."
     
  20. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I like to think that I do.

    When I read Revelation 21, I think that death, mourning, and pain still exist, even among the believers.
     
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