Interesting Teachings from Augustine . . . .

have you not had a chance to gather those qotes? </font>[/QUOTE]I almost forgot this thread, so sorry if I am late in responding. (I wish this forum would allow the expansion of topics into a hieriarchal tree, so that I can see where my responses are in a given thread.)

Anyhow, I looked into scanning the material I was considering, but it is way too cumbersome.

I would suggest the book:

NOT BY SCRIPTURE ALONE
by Robert A. Sungenis,
ISBN: 1-57918-055-8

Chapter 8 of this book is by Joe Gallegos, who goes into the issue of those early fathers who seemed to support Sola Scriptura, against those who were in support of both scripture and the scriptures in determining doctrine and faith.

In any event, the case is made for an overwhelming support of both scripture and Church teachings (sacred tradition - the teaching magisterium of the Church).

But since you were interested in the writings of Augustine, let me see if I can pick out an interesting quote from the reference I give above, concerning Augustine's debate with one Maximinus the Arian:

Quoted from the above book, Chapter 8, page 430-433...................

In contrast, Augustine provides the correct perspective on Scripture as it balanced with the Church's interpretation if Scripture.

</font>[/QUOTE]End of Quote from recommended book........

The interesting about this exchange is how closely Maximinus approximates the Sola Scriptura argument as Protestants do today. They are debating, of course the Trinity, which the Arians denied. Note how Augustine tries to convince Maximinus that the teachings of the Church are not somehow superseded by scripture, which Sola Scriptura would subscribe to. There is more, but this is too big of a post already.................

For me, this is positive prove that St. Augustine did not believe in Sola Scriptura!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

[ February 26, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: WPutnam ]

 

Lisa replied:

I'm sorry, but I see nothing in the exerpt you've quoted from Sungenis' book showing that Augustine did not hold to SS and in anyway used tradition to prove his position. This exerpt is not even in regards to SS, but to the nature(s) of God.</font>[/QUOTE]Lisa, I know the issue was not Sola Scriptura! The Issue was about Arianism and their doctrines that deny the Trinity!

But in his defense, he speaks of the authority of the Church. In other words, Augustine supports the supposition that the Church has the authority, through the Council of Nicaea, the doctrine of the Trinity. Maximinus wanted Augustine to prove it from scripture only.

Get the idea?...........................

Now, the quote you gave of Augustine is weak compared to one of the quotes of the fathers concerning their apparent teaching that scripture is sufficient for teaching, doctrine and faith, and indeed, here is that stronger quote:

(From the same book I recommended, chapter 8, page 392)

And when you compare this seemingly stronger quote from Augustine with the one you provided, do you see any denial of the authority of the teaching magisterium of the Church? For you to declare that St. Augustine believes in Sola Scriptura, you will have to show me where he asserts the authority of scripture over the authority of the Church. These two quotes do nothing of the sort.

Now, let's look at other writings of St. Augustine:

(chapter 8, page 439 of the recommended book)

</font>[/QUOTE]It is plain as can be, St. Augustine sees authority in both the scriptures and the magisterium of Holy Church.

And if that does not convince you, I have more...........................

God bless,

PAX

Bill+++


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Does Augustine say that this can not be proven by Scripture? No. Does he say that we must look to RC Tradition? No. Show me one statement he makes below that excludes support of Scripture.

I really can't discuss to well this discourse between Maximinus and Augustine. Can you tell me where on the New Advent site or the CCEL site I can find this discourse?

Thank you. </font>[/QUOTE]All I did was quote from the book I referenced, so I am afraid I cannot help you, other then go to Joe Gallegos, the author of chapter 8 of that book. The footnotes give a reference to each quote, but I have no idea where to go to find them to read. I don't think you will be able to find them on the internet and must go to a pretty good seminary, Catholic or Protestant, to find them in their libraries, which is beyond my capability.

I take Joe Gallegos on faith here. Note the elipises (...) within, meaning that he has quoted from larger references for clarity.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Of which you said:

What is it you understand Augustine to be saying in the above quote? Because I see no conflict between it and the quote I provided. I'm not sure what you think this quote proves. </font>[/QUOTE]The first quote I gave you was one that, IMO, provides a stronger argument for you case of Sola Scriptura, taken in the limited context that is provided.

Lisa, maybe I confused you by providing a separate quote that seeimgly makes your case stronger, noticing again that it say nothing about the authority of scripture overpowering or replacing the authority of the Church. The quote I provided (the first one) was in the book's chapter eight listing those quotes from the fathers that "seemingly" support the sufficiency of scripture alone. Without the context of the body of writings by St. Augustine, it is easy to come to this erronious conclusion.

Then I quoted further from that book, which went on showing where St. Augustine quite clearly shows the authority of both scripture and the magisterium of the Church taken together. That was the second quote I provided, and there is more where that came from!

In other words, the last quote I gave very clearly shows the Church's position on authority, something shared by both the scriptures and the Church.

Remember this: We Catholics do not deny the authority of scriptures, else why would we even preserve it, the very authors who were the eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ? Seeing this, the Church herself recognized that scripture has an equal authority with her own.

After all, she was the first and original "deposit" of an oral authority given to her by Christ - Holy Church. It was then later on that the Church recognized the authority of the very scripture they canonized.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

Lisa replied:

</font>[/QUOTE]Did you catch the phrase, "but the common witness for both of us"? St. Augustine is simply saying to Maximinus that he will not accept the judgment of Nicaea (The Church Council of, which is the Church in action in her teaching magisterium authority) therefore, St. Augustine must resort to a reference to scripture only to satisfy Maximinus.

That does not mean the St. Augustine supports the idea of Sola Scriptura at all! In fact, you get the feeling that St. Augustine has his hands tied in that Maximinus will not consider any reference, St. Augustine might make to the teaching authority of the Church.

In my many years of reading the early church fathers, I do indeed, see a little "un-unanimous consent." The problem is, it is very little, noting in fact, a remarkable agreement among the fathers! Remember, their writings are as fallible as anyone's writings. They do not enjoy the divine inspiration as scriptures do. But saying that, they are in remarkable agreement on most issues and doctrines. Even some of the fathers who wrote while in a heresy and speaking in derision of Church teaching, proves (or strongly indicates) what the Church taught in the time it was written!

What is plainly said is that scripture is the only common ground between them!

You see absolutely nothing here to indicate that St. Augustine sees Scripture as the only source of truth, teaching and doctrine.

Yes, by the providence of God, the New Testament was certainly written and since they were the eyewitness accounts of the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses of Christ and His teachings, the New Testament has authority. But this does not take away from the teaching authority of the Church, which came before the New Testament was written, and then that same declared that the very New Testament that came later, was divinely inspired and of equal authority!

And all you see here is something we both agree with - the great authority and teaching source in the Holy Scriptures! 'We both agree that the Scriptures is authority! GREAT AUTHORITY! The problem is, it is not the only authority, which cannot be found in the writings of St. Augustine, not anywhere at all.

But please get involved with St. Augustine, and please be aware of the occasions where he writes about the authority of the Church. Later on, if you cannot find them, I will quote some of them for you...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

Okay, now, you like every other RC I've conversed with like to repeat, "Context, context, context. You must read the fathers in context to understand what they truly believe." Yet, here you've read a book by another person and are willing to accept what he says based upon one very sketchy quote. What gives? </font>[/QUOTE]Of course, I would also like to read all of this material in total context. I do not have the library Joe Gallegos has, thus I do not know how to find it all so I can read it! And is Joe's quote all that "sketchy"? When quoting from other's writings, there are two conflicting problems: To quote only what is necessary so that you don't have the book bloated with material that is not pertinent to the subject, and yet quote enough so that you preserve the context of what you are quoting. It is a balancing act that all authors must do.

Did you notice the footnotes that denotes where all of this material came from? That, I presume, is the material one must go to, to see the whole context you want. And listen to me! I have no idea where you can find these references except to forage around in Joe's library once again! But here is his website. Perhaps he can help you (as I skate out the back door, chuckling to myself! )

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm

I trust Joe Gallegos! I have known him for years (not personally) and I know his apologetics quite well. I know it does not satisfy you, but if you want to go that far for further study and reading, good for you! Have fun!

Finally, Context is much easier, when you are quoting from the bible, as the bible is tiny in comparison to all of the writings of the early church fathers. I understand that to have all of the extant writings, it takes a volume set equal to the Encyclopedia Britannica! So, I agree with you that context is important but sometimes I cannot go beyond what I quoted from, my resources being limited.

I last said:

Did you catch the phrase, "but the common witness for both of us"? St. Augustine is simply saying to Maximinus that he will not accept the judgment of Nicaea (The Church Council of, which is the Church in action in her teaching magisterium authority) therefore, St. Augustine must resort to a reference to scripture only to satisfy Maximinus.[/QUOTE]Which Augustine is very confidently able to do. He did not have to rely on any outside source to prove his point. Scripture was all that was necessary for him to prove the Trinity. He didn't need to resort to so-called Apostolic Traditions or supposed "authority" of the RCC.

That does not mean the St. Augustine supports the idea of Sola Scriptura at all!

First of all, you will note from the reply from St. Augustine to Maximinus, he does not yet attempt, (yet, so far as I can see) scripture, but appeals to the church and her authority. So I misstated the above. I see no reference to scripture at all in his statement, simply appealing to Maximinus to accept the teaching magisterium and authority of the Church. (If we had more of what St. Augustine wrote to Maximinus, I suspect we would see him go into the scripture proofs of the Trinity, etc.)

But let me see what I can find what St. Augustine does (but not necessarily with Maximinus):

But first, do you remember this that I posted?

Do you notice St. Augustine's reference to both the scriptures and the "authority of the Church" here?

But let me see what else I can find:

Do you notice his reference to both the authority of scriptures and of the Church here, Lisa?

Here, we see no reference at all to scriptures but to the judgment of those fathers who have preceded him, based upon "What they found in the Church." Is this evidence that St. Augustine recognizes the authority of the Church, certainly reflected in those glorious predecessors of his?

And again from the book I recommended previously, we find this:

"Augustine affirmed the authority of the Church throughout his controversies with the Pelagian, Manichean, and Donetist heresies.

Wow! How much more do you need to see how St. Augustine relies on the authority in the Catholic Church?

(Continued in next message)

 

(Continued from previous message)

But here is one more:

But here is my favorite, written in affirmation of the authority of the Roman see, against Pelagianism:

Now, Lisa, is that not the perfect example of St. Augustine acceding to the teaching magistium of the Church?

NOTE: All quotes taken from Chapter 8 of NOT BY SCRIPTURE ALONE
by Robert Sungenis, ISBN 1-57918-055-8 (Chapter 8 written by Joe Gallegos.)

I last said:

In fact, you get the feeling that St. Augustine has his hands tied in that Maximinus will not consider any reference, St. Augustine might make to the teaching authority of the Church.

I never implied that St. Augustine did not count on scripture. The important thing to realize is, he counted on both scripture and the Church!

When you read all of the church fathers, something becomes quite obvious; Scriptures and the Church are in a symbiotic relationship in the determining the course of doctrines, faith and morals. Not the Church alone; not scriptures alone, but both together.

In my many years of reading the early church fathers, I do indeed, see a little "un-unanimous consent." The problem is, it is very little, noting in fact, a remarkable agreement among the fathers! Remember, their writings are as fallible as anyone's writings. They do not enjoy the divine inspiration as scriptures do. But saying that, they are in remarkable agreement on most issues and doctrines. Even some of the fathers who wrote while in a heresy and speaking in derision of Church teaching, proves (or strongly indicates) what the Church taught in the time it was written!

...snip...(to save space)

Lisa, please take any scriptural interpretation the Catholic Church teaches that goes against any of the fathers and post it here, if you will. I know of none.

I last said:


You see absolutely nothing here to indicate that St. Augustine sees Scripture as the only source of truth, teaching and doctrine.

When he is forced to do so, indeed!

Guess what, Lisa, and not to anywhere nearly appear to indicate my stature of being anywhere near of the great St. Augustine, but there is one thing we have in common. Oh, also, in common with nearly all of the Catholic apologists you will see here, is that we do exactly the same thing insofar as debating a position from scripture only!

Why?

Because it is the one common ground we have with the Protestants in a debate on the issues that separate us! Because we debate from scriptures only, as a result, does not make us believers in Sola Scriptura!

And by the same reasoning, it certainly does not make St. Augustine a believer in Sola Scriptura as well...

Lisa, I argue from the "best fit" definition of Sola Scriptura I can find when I debate with a given individual. If that is a "straw man" then attack the "straw man"! But when I see people say they will not accept the authority from the Catholic Church, where do they turn to? Scriptures only!

Is that a "straw man," Lisa? If so, correct me and we can go from there!

Lisa then posted:

And to my last statement, Lisa replies:

Lisa, do you see anything here that takes away from the authority of the Church?

St. Augustine is making a very good case for why the scriptures were written - to "etch in concrete" if you will, the teachings of the apostles. The Oral Tradition is a dynamic etching in the minds and hearts of the apostles, committed to them by Our Lord orally, with words that do indeed, "pass away when they strike the air." But don't you think that the apostles committed this oral teaching to memory even as the words that left the lips of Our Lord fade in the distance?

So to whom was Augustine talking about here? The apostles, who had the gospel message etched upon their hearts and minds or to the Church, her sons who are the successors, while they certainly have the same gospels orally given, they have the "etchings in concrete" of the scriptures!

You are trying to make a case where this "etching" is all me need for authority, when indeed, we have too many fathers declaring that this is not so. Of course, Augustine is indicating that the scriptures, the gospels "etched in concrete," is for all Christians to read and study. (those he is talking to here.)

But for defining doctrine, faith and morals, it takes the Church and the scriptures in symbiotic union to do so. And no wonder the Church protected what was written; to give added support to what ever she defines and teaches...

I continued:

And all you see here is something we both agree with - the great authority and teaching source in the Holy Scriptures! 'We both agree that the Scriptures is authority! GREAT AUTHORITY! The problem is, it is not the only authority, which cannot be found in the writings of St. Augustine, not anywhere at all.[/QUOTE]Then you show me Augustine giving such authority to Traditions. You show me where Augustine uses oral traditions to rebuke, confirm, prove, support any point-of-view. Show me where Augustine even mentions by name one of these traditions.

But please get involved with St. Augustine, and please be aware of the occasions where he writes about the authority of the Church. Later on, if you cannot find them, I will quote some of them for you...

I think I gave you this already above. At least two, I think...............

God bless,

PAX

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

Hey Bill,

I just wanted to say you did a great job on this thread and you are much gentler with some people than I can find the patience inside myself for. Kudos bud. Do you still hang around RCO?

Blessings

 

Thank you for the kind words, Thess, but it does nothing for my humility! I stand on the shoulders of persons far greater then I in doing this stuff, and Joe Gallegos is one of them (who personally started me off into this apologetics business) and the likes of Dave Armstrong, Steve Ray and a few others.

What is "RCO"? I probably have, but I don't recognise the abbreviation.

Anyhooooo, I've been watching you too, son, and you do just fine yourself!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him. Proverbs 24:17-18