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Is Abortion Murder?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by C.S. Murphy, Aug 18, 2002.

  1. onevoice

    onevoice <img src =/onevoice.jpg>

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    The Holy Bible, King James Version

    Proverbs 26:5 (KJV)
    5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
    --------------------------------------------

    The reasoning for your argument is foolish. Only an idiot would think that they should defend the rights of a person who are putting their lives at risk in their own free will by having a surgical proceedure that is not necessary.

    Let's think or a moment. You are a woman. You are pregnant because you have had sex outside of marraige and don't want to take responsibility for your actions so you go to have this "inconvenience" removed so that you can have sex with someone else and repeat the cycle.

    Who do I stand up for? The innocent child who has no choice or the lady who knew knowingly and willingly put her life at rist in order to kill another human being.
     
  2. onevoice

    onevoice <img src =/onevoice.jpg>

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  3. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    Ok, Helen, you have made a little more headway with my belief on abortion. Here it is.

    I agree that abortion should be avoided if possible. I agree that it is wrong for secular reasons only. I don't think it is murder, but rather the prevention of life. And for that reason only, I think it is to be avoided if a woman can be convinced to avoid it. But what has not changed is that scripture doesn't say it is murder, and in fact scripture allows abortion in some cases so it can't be murder.

    That may not be a lot of change to you on my part, but it is to me. Thanks for your consistent arguments.
     
  4. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    Illogical argument since his nostrils had to be formed before God could breath into them. It implies that the whole of the man had been created first, then the breath.
     
  5. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Thank you for your work inside yourself, post-it. I know it is hard. I took five years to move from evolution to creation and if you have gone this far in a few days, you are to be commended highly!

    However, regarding the creation of man, I'm not real sure God is answerable to man's logic or sense of time! This is the same God who created and stretched out the entire universe in a rather short amount of time...grin.

    but we can leave that one for another time.
     
  6. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Ok, did my post get deleted that fast or did I make a mistake trying to post it? [​IMG]
    Gina
     
  7. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    With the things that have been written in this thread, nothing is being deleted. Hope you didn't lose it all.

    btw, why couldn't you pick a moniker we all could remember, pronounce and spell? :D
     
  8. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Sure Post-it, just shorten it to Chrys when you see it. :D Or think "Gina" whenever you see *that* word.
    Yep, apparently lost the whole post, but I basically asked at what point you consider a fetus a child worthy of life. Would it be when it was capable of taking breath on it's own if it was born, or is it when it actually takes that first breath?
    I assumed answers in my firt post and questioned them, but now I'll just wait and see what you say first. [​IMG]
    Gina
     
  9. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    All I can think about now since looking up the word is green stone. So now I'm think'in ROCK when I see your name. Please help.

    You don't mind if I call you Rocky do you? :D

    Since I had a change of heart on this issue today, I will have to word this right.

    Scripture implies first breath is when life enters. We can then assume that whenever a baby takes the first breath, even on a ventilator, at that point it is alive as a person. Since abortion before the baby breaths can't be killing a life according to scripture, as long as a fetus takes no first breath, then it can't be considered killing a person. I'm leaving out what I feel about this since you are asking from the standpoint of what I think scripture is saying.

    [ August 25, 2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  10. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    I offer no appologies.
    I'll say it again. CRAAAAP!! Pro Abortion views STINK! No what I said wasn't nice! Neither is spiritual warfare. I imagine Jesus wasn't feeling very "nice" when he started flipping over tables in the temple with a whip! I can imagine his righteous anger when it comes to abortion is just as fiery!

    By the way killing little babies doesn't sound nice either, thats why people call babies, fetuses and infanticide/murder, abortion.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Your PROBLEM is that I am PROLIFE! BIG PERIOD. Where in my post did you ever get the idea I was Proabortion. As you would say C.......! Get some glasses. Unless you live on Mars, there will always be spiritual warfare.....but that's another topic. You came in like a blowing wind, and so far, that is what it is, wind. Good spiritual language, though!

    God Bless...........Alex
     
  11. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    Excellent post Tom Amen.
    Murph
     
  12. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    refuke thee. My goodness Post it is this some new form of punishment that God gives, the dreaded refuke. Just kidding but you gotta admit it is funny.
    Murph
     
  13. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    AMEN to both you and Helen and others who will not stray from being ProLife. You MUST lay in the bed you make, in this earthly life! ;) That includes the possible guilt ProAbortin activists encure in later life when they, too, find out they were wrong. :mad:

    God Bless..........Alex
     
  14. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Ok, on the name thing, look up Revelation 21:20. [​IMG]

    On the life thing, here's a situation.
    I delivered a woman's baby some years ago, and here's what happened. The baby's head came out, but I held it there because the u-cord was wrapped around the neck. I was able to pull it over so that it wouldn't strangle it on full delivery. Baby hadn't taken a breath yet. Would I have been guilty of murder if I'd "aborted" it then?
    Then baby was then fully delivered. It didn't take a breath then either.
    At that point if I'd have set it down and left it and it hadn't started to breathe, would it have been murder?
    I cleaned out the baby's mouth, rubbed it's back, and finally slapped it once before he took a breath.
    At what point was this a child to you?
    At extremely early stages of development in utero, babies can feel pain, feel stress, they have a heartbeat, etc.. I encourage you to buy the video "Silent Scream" and watch a child being aborted before you continue in your belief that until they take a first breath, it isn't a child. That video, if I remember correctly, is only at 7 weeks? Also, late-term ones are available.
    I've heard many people say that late term abortions are reserved for those whose children are deformed or where it would be dangerous for the pregnancy to continue.
    I'd like to state that in my own experiences, I know of cases where this simply isn't true. A friend of mine obtained an abortion at 6 months for convenience purposes. I myself visited an abortion clinic in my teens where they informed me I was 5 months (first week of 5th month), but never commented that it was too late for an abortion or that I'd have to have a medical reason. Instead, I was told there was a 24 hour waiting period, and they gave me preparation instructions and never once stated that the procedure could be dangerous or give any information on how developed the child would be. The planned method was that they would use seaweed for dilation, inject a fatal solution of some type of salt? that the baby would ingest, be poisoned slowly and then pulled out. The babies aborted in this method come out usually with burned looking skin from the solution, and fully perfect little humans. Sometimes they haven't died completely, and struggle for breath. Are they then humans?
    BTW, I walked into the room, saw the ultrasound screen from the woman before me and the pic of her baby, and knew right then I couldn't do it and walked out, saying I'd be back the next day. On the second floor exit the security guard stopped me and said they wanted to talk to me, so I went back up. They informed me that they needed to do another test, they had one negative test and since the lab had thought they were all positive, they hadn't marked names. Mine turned out to be that negative test. Thank God, because my boyfriend then was set on it and I don't know that he wouldn't have talked me back into going. I was afraid, I was ignorant, and you know what? I had always been against abortion. I walked in knowing full well before I ever saw that ultrasound pic that it was murder, but I chose it because my boyfriend wanted it and because it was the easier way out for me. And I believe that a lot of people who have abortions feel the same way.
    No matter what excuses are made, when you have sex and that sex results in a pregnancy, that is another life. That is how God created people and animals...to produce more life. We are allowed to end animal life, and even guidelines on how to kill animals were given so as not to cause them undue pain. Human lives, babies, call them fetuses if you must, aren't even given this much regard. They are ripped into pieces, or burned, poinsoned, with doctors having the full knowledge that they have a hearbeat and feel pain.
    It's just wrong.
    Gina
     
  15. Ingo Breuer

    Ingo Breuer Member

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  16. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    In our country, these are considered porno-
    graphy. I remember an attempt to outlaw such
    photos. I had seen many of these photos when
    I was working for a Right to Life organization.
    Does anyone know a resource for them in
    English?
     
  17. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    To the person several pages back that said all this debate was wasted, I think not. In any debate much is learned for both sides AND 18 pages into this topic, post-it has had a change of heart, to a small degree, but never-the-less, a change, so stick around and add your thoughts!

    Post it:

    Just for thought and bypassing scripture, do you think life starts at conception? This could be any life form in this scenario. I bypassed scripture to see where you stand, in general. To me, life starts at conception. This is a continuing process until birth and continues untill death, would you not agree? Now back to God. Wouldn't you think God, the creator of life, would say to any conception(if that is the proper way to say it), Boy :D , that's what I wanted, another life on planet Earth! On the other side of this , Do you think that God would only be happy after a complete birth?

    God Bless...........Alex
     
  18. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Abiyah, there are many places you can view the photos on the web, and many resources such as pamphlets and videos that can be ordered off of the internet from different resources. Type into your search engine "abortion photos", or abortion, or pro-life resources.
    I would urge people to be cautious which sites they gather info from and get resources from. Some pro-lifers are harming the cause by making up stories or lying about photos when the truth is enough, so just research info carefully before using it.
    Gina
     
  19. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    Ok, I wasn't clear enough on the above details. Scripture says that if a child is born alive meaning that it is breathing on its own (in modern times we will need to add that this could mean with a ventilator also) and afterwards it dies due to intentional harm to the mother/child be-birth, then it is murder. But if it was born without being able to breath, then it is not a life (no death penalty).

    So in your example of "If I didn't unwrap the cord from around it's neck" then yes it is still murder since the baby could breath if you had allowed it to breath, in the same way It seems that scripture is sayiing that a mother aborting a child at 5-6 months (today) is killing her baby since the Child could likely breath by that time with a ventilator (I don't really know, I'm assuming that a fetus could breath if Helens older post is correct.)

    I would still like to hear justification for God's direction to the priest to cause abortion (book of Numbers). Or do we pretend that didn't happen. Was God wrong? I don't think he was but most of you who feel abortion is murder pre--5-6 months are saying God commands can be wrong and we can overlook some, at least this one. Is that true?

    Do we follow scripture or do we do what is right for our day? The homosexual issue comes to mind if we want to stop treating people wrong because the Bible indicates that something is wrong or right and it is "out of date" in it meaning.
     
  20. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    Yes, I would agree that life starts at conception. That is pretty obvious. However, scripture says something different. Before I ever started on this thread, I made a statement that All I wanted people to do is to stop making the statement that "God and the Bible are against abortion", they are not. And if you want to fight against prochoice do it by secular means of right and wrong. Bringing God into it and then lying about the Biblical stand is Blasphemy.

    Now I think the Bible is right in the timing when life really begins since none of know for sure what "life" really is. If it means a spirit entering with or without life's breath that's one thing, etc.... So who am I to question what God and the Bible says. I just think life begins when it can be prevented from continuing a path to developing into a person. That means no condoms! The Catholic's have it right on that one.

    Abortion is preventing life from occuring, that I know for a fact. Is that murder? NO! This means I believe that life starts but can be ended without that being wrong. But at 5-6 months then it is wrong.
     
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