1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is Belief A Law?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Apr 10, 2024.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    11,066
    Likes Received:
    2,436
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Brother Glen:)
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,706
    Likes Received:
    2,919
    Faith:
    Baptist
    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the oth
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not in the sense that I think you are asking. Faith is a requirement of God for salvation. It is not a work.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,882
    Likes Received:
    1,339
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, it is not. It is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ) and the evidence of God's work in someone ( Hebrews 11:1 )... Jesus Christ authored and finished it ( Hebrews 12:2 ) for every one of His people.

    Making it a requirement ( that the Lord then regards favorably before He can save someone ) is teaching works, not grace.
    God does not regard any man's efforts when it comes to whom He saves...no man is better than any other man. and none of us can do anything that would make us deserving of salvation in His eyes;

    Belief on His Son included.

    Silverhair,
    What you have stated in the above is not the Gospel that the Lord preached, nor is it the Gospel that He committed to His apostles.

    Please read Romans, Ephesians and Galatians again, sir.
    There is nothing in His word that tells born again believers that it was "on them" to make the right choice first, before God would save them..

    Rather, it tells us that it was all of God. start to finish.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The gift of God is eternal life for those that believe.
    Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    Rom_6:23 the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    It looks like J.Calvin does not agree with you Dave
    "The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God?
    The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us."
    “Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ.”
    Calvin commentary Eph 2:8

    Faith or Works
    Scripture clearly teaches that faith and works are polar opposites.

    John 6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe

    Romans 3:21-22 righteousness of God, through faith in Christ Jesus

    Romans 3:27-28 justified by faith apart from deeds of law

    Romans 4:4-5 to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

    Galatians 2:16 ... a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law

    Galatians 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

    Act 16:30 ... "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
    Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Dave I realize that for you God needs to give you faith as your theology requires that view. It is not a biblical one.

    Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Dave you need to read Romans, Ephesians and Galatians again without the calvinist preconditions. Trust what the word of God says not what some man has told you the word of God says.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2021
    Messages:
    2,504
    Likes Received:
    287
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "The grace that is offered in the general tenders of the gospel, calleth for faith, as a condition in us, without which there is no life;" John Bunyan

    But then, he follows with this "but the special grace of election worketh faith in us without any such condition". I think, from reading Bunyan, that he had no problem looking at faith as a "condition". And Bunyan goes on to make the case that the things we all have available to us, the written word, the miracles, nature, circumstances and all that make it completely unreasonable and outrageous that a person does not respond to the gospel and come by faith. And it also makes that person truly guilty for not doing so. Yet, it is Bunyan's position that still, we tend to be so tainted by sin that we are truly unwilling to respond to the offer of salvation as presented in the gospel. Therefore you have the second portion that I put out there, in context, where he says that those that end up coming were given even more grace, and they are the "elect".

    In other words, Bunyan seems to be saying much of what you and Lennox and Flowers say as far as what should happen when the gospel is offered to someone, but he doesn't think that it is going to happen without direct intervention by the Holy Spirit.

    My question to anyone who wants to jump in here is this: In your opinion, where and how is the Holy Spirit involved in the process of someone coming to Christ. I have been reading Leighton Flowers and I don't see where he includes the Holy Spirit at all. Am I missing something here?
     
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2021
    Messages:
    2,504
    Likes Received:
    287
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I understand what you are saying if you add things to saving faith like having a purposeful determination to hereafter obey and be holy but if your definition of faith is submitting to and trusting in God's provision of salvation based on what Christ has done for you and resting in that - how, in that case could it possibly be a work even if it were totally of the person involved?
    I agree with that but we are the ones who have to believe, not God. It seems that there are a lot of differing opinions as to what "all of God means".
     
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do not know what Flowers has or has not said re the Holy Spirit. I just trust what the bible tells me. The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world. John 16:8-9 Calvinist's seem to think that it is only through an application of Irresistible Grace that one can actually believe but that is not a biblical concept.

    The calvinist is saying that the spoken word of God is insufficient unless the Holy Spirit “opens the heart” and makes those words “understandable.” This assumes that mankind is born unable to understand and accept clearly revealed truth.

    According to the calvinist all of humanity is born unable to believe the clearly revealed truth’s of scripture, but they are able to believe the lies of false religions like the Mormon’s & JW’s and even the Koran. Yet, God will hold us responsible for believing the lies and rejecting the truth’s of His Holy Word.

    While God desires that all come to faith in His son He will not force anyone to do so. The calvinist say God forces only some to come to His son and has to give them faith after He has saved them.
     
  9. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2021
    Messages:
    2,504
    Likes Received:
    287
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't know Silverhair. I see so many claims thrown around. Like your assertion that you only look at scripture when the Calvinists are clearly looking at scripture too, sometimes the exact same scriptures. And like when Calvinists practically put a curse on anyone who says faith is a condition when a lot of the best Calvinists, and scripture, say it's a condition. They quickly try to turn faith into a work because they know that there are clear scriptures saying you can't be saved by works yet not realizing that faith is always contrasted with works as such, not the method or process of how you come to faith.

    I have tried to figure out in all my reading how Bunyan and Spurgeon for instance seem to be favorites of Baptists of all stripes, even staunchly anti-Calvinists, even though these two guys were Calvinists. So far I have realized that:
    1. They believed fully that from our point of view, we hear the gospel and when the truth of the gospel becomes apparent and we begin to see this truth we choose to come to Christ using our normal human faculties.
    2. It is us that must believe and faith is indeed the condition for being made right with God.
    3. They fully believe that there is no impediment put up by God whereby even the non-elect could not, if they wanted to, come to Christ and be saved at any time they chose.

    This I think is the same as what most Baptists believe. But they also believe that without some type of direct action by the Holy Spirit on individuals, beyond a general, blanket effect, no one will get saved. And this I think is where all you guys who fall into a Provisionist type of belief fail. Even John R. Rice, in his book where he attacks Calvinism (which he calls hyper-Calvinism) claims that there can be a time where God judicial stops calling someone and thus they are then hopelessly lost, because they cannot come without he drawing of the Holy Spirit. Wesley also taught this. I don't see any such thing taught by Flowers or Lennox so I was wondering if you had. I may have missed it.

    No. 3 above is I think the key that differentiates "moderate Calvinists" from most of the Calvinists of the modern schools of thought. Calvinism teaches that we are messed up so bad that we won't come on our own. We are so bad off that you can substitute "can't" for won't and be correct. But a lot of Calvinists seem to believe that in addition to the fact that humans are in such a mess - they have God actively putting up barriers to prevent the non-elect from any possibility of salvation. And they seem to enjoy doing that. They also teach that the atonement itself blocks out and prevents all the non-elect from being saved. In the case of Bunyan, he clearly taught no such thing about the atonement. Spurgeon did teach a limited atonement but not in the way the modern Calvinist theologians do. He taught that there indeed is an "offer" of the gospel to everyone and it is real, and he cast the net wide and taught that anyone who finds themselves inclined to Christ can indeed come. (Actually even Owen taught that.)

    I say all that just to suggest that if you don't like Calvinism that's fine. But be careful of the idea that the facts of the gospel are all that is necessary and once they are made known the rest is up to man. That is not the way it works.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,393
    Likes Received:
    1,264
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 3:26-28, . . . To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. . . .

     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    One correction Dave, I will read various commentaries and on occasion will even quote them but it is scripture that I base my decisions on. I think calviinists even look at scripture on occasion. ;) It just seems that they tend to pick out select verses and ignore the context and dismiss other text's completely. Now I know they would make the same accusation for us that are not calvinist. That's why we disagree on some points.

    This is a web site that makes a contrast of the views of calvinism {TULIP} Dave you seem to hold to the moderate view.

    I can agree with the basic intent of the three points you listed, I would just modify them a tad.

    And here is where we do disagree, you require a direct / decisive action of the Holy Spirit whereas I do not see that in the bible. God uses various means to draw people to Himself but none of them are Irresistible. God offer's the gift of salvation to all but man must accept it. That is why man is held responsible for rejecting Christ.

    When God judicially stops calling someone they are then hopelessly lost, they cannot save themselves nor force God to save them. Although if they have reached the point where God will judicially stop calling them they would not want to be with Him anyway. Having said that, if the person for whatever reason did in faith turn to God then God would save them. While God is always ready to save He will only save those that want to be saved and I believe that door is always open up to the time of death.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,706
    Likes Received:
    2,919
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just as 'not all Israel is of Israel', not all works are the same:

    ....the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

    ....by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3:20

    Not apples and apples.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,706
    Likes Received:
    2,919
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good one!

     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Agree on both points. But that does not alter what I posted does it. Faith that leads to salvation is not a work. That is something that you do not seem able or willing to accept.

    Rom 2:13 those that could keep the whole law shall be justified by it
    BUT
    Rom 3:20 since no one can keep the whole law none shall be justified by it.

    But those that are of the faith of Abraham are those that believe in God and their faith is credited as righteousness.

    Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,706
    Likes Received:
    2,919
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Saved, salvation, words gommed up horribly by evangelical free-willers. Fill in the blank, Silv:

    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 who will render to every man according to his _________:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
     
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So what does that have to do with someone trusting in Christ? You continue to dance around the issue KY.

    You forget that God wants all to come to repentance and provides the means for us to trust in Him.

    Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
     
    #16 Silverhair, Apr 12, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2024
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,706
    Likes Received:
    2,919
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Fill in the blank Silv.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,706
    Likes Received:
    2,919
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Filll in the blank, Silv:

    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 who will render to every man according to his _________:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
     
    #18 kyredneck, Apr 12, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2024
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What is it with you calvinist's. do you think having me say "deeds" will change what the bible says.
    The only ones that have to worry about being judged for their deeds are those that have not freely trusted in God for their salvation. You, KY, may be concerned that you will be judged for your deeds but that is not a concern for me as I have trusted in the only one that can take away my sins, Christ Jesus.

    But like I said before what does that question have to do with someone trusting in Christ? You continue to dance around the issue KY.

    You forget that God wants all to come to repentance and provides the means for us to trust in Him.

    Rom 2:4 Or do you {KY} think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

    Are you not capable of answering a question? That is a malady that many calvinist's suffer from.
     
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,882
    Likes Received:
    1,339
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Let's look at it again, Silverhair, :

    " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    not of works, lest any man should boast.
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    " ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

    Look at what it says in the above... Faith is the gift of God that is "not of ourselves", as believers.
    We ( believers ) are God's workmanship, created in ( See Romans 9, vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ) Christ Jesus.
    This was done by Him and relies upon nothing else.

    " But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin {is} death; but the gift of God {is} eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:22-23 ).

    Again, in context and outside of isolating it from the rest of Scripture, look at what it says in the above:
    Believers, being made free from sin by the death of His Son ( from Romans 5 ) and become the servants of righteousness, are told that the gift ( not reward ) of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ their Lord.

    It's a gift, Silverhair...not a result of trying to earn one's way into the grace of God.

    Conditional "salvation" is based on the efforts and desires of men; In other words, works.
    God's salvation is based on the efforts and desires of God; In other words, grace.

    The two do not co-exist, as God says that they cannot:

    " Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it] be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." ( Romans 11:5-6 )

    We, as believers, are the remnant that is according to the election ( choosing ) of grace...
    Not God allowing ( or worse yet, requiring ) us to make a choice before He can save us.


    That is what God says, not John Calvin.
     
    #20 Dave G, Apr 13, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2024
Loading...