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Featured Is Calvisnism Gnostic

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Give me a break, even Calvinists admit Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine.
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You need to go back and reread my post.
     
  3. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    This statement is staggering in the ignorance it shows about Calvin. That Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine is readily acknowledged by all, Calvinist or otherwise, who have any knowledge of Calvin and his belief system.


    It is better than your opinion and that is all you have given.

    There is no doubt that Augustine at one time in his life was a Gnostic. From Encyclopedia Britannica:





    No one who has even a very elementary knowledge of Calvin denies that Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine.

    One area from the quote above, which I will put in a quote below, is classic Gnosticism:

    The separation of the spiritual from the material is a lynch-pin of Gnosticism and fits well into Calvin's theology.

    And another from the same passage is an idea that also is straight from Gnosticism and fits into Calvin's theology on the total depravity of man.

     
    #23 Crabtownboy, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No one in this thread has denied that Austine was once a Gnostic or that Austine influenced Calvinism. Not one single time.

    But it is a formal fallacy to suggest that those facts automatically lead to the idea that any part of Calvinism is Gnostic.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    By the way Augustine came to eventually teach against Manichaeism


    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf104.html
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    So even the mistaken use of the formal fallacy suggesting that because Augustine was once influenced by Gnosticism means that Calvinism has some foundation in Gnosticism is utterly refuted and completely discredited.
     
  7. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Direct line connecting the dots:

    Gnostic belief that humans are totally depraved as the material is evil while the spirit is good.

    Augustine, who was a Gnostic for a period of time, fits the idea into his theology. He had to make a few adjustments for it to fit into his Christian belief system.

    Calvin, greatly influenced by Augustine, makes "total depravity" one of his five lynch-pins of his theology.
     
  8. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Your opinion refutes nothing You cite no sources. You give only your opinion.

    Give us sources showing a disconnect between the three.
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    First, you have shown no real connection between the three. Your formal fallacy is obvious.


    Second I have disproven any chance of a connection with a sited source which you have conveniently overlooked.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Prove that is what he did. The fact that he preached against Gnosticism later disproves your unsubstantiated claim.
     
  11. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    There were many groups with differing beliefs all of whom were called Gnostics. Of course Augustine preached against those Gnostics with whom he did not agree. But, as can be seen, in his total depravity of man, he did not jettison all of his Gnostic beliefs. Also, his separation of the material and spiritual is directly from Gnostic beliefs.

    Yes, he jettisoned some Gnostic beliefs. But not all.

    It is too late here tonight to respond to your "prove that is what he did". However you are 8 hours behind me, so surely you can research it for yourself in that time. It is all there if you will but look.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Of course you want to make a claim and have me research your claim for you. You cannot support your own and are avoiding being accountable to your own words. Your next post will be more false accusations against me mike you usually do. You have now proven your inability to support your formal fallacies.
    \
    And is it clear from my scholarly source that what Augustine preached against specifically was Manichaeism, the very thing you hold that influenced him. But like a true liberal you speak in generalities rather than specifics so as not to be accountable to much. It does not fly with me.
     
    #32 Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
  13. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    :thumbsup:

    Augustine is the source of most errors in the Western churches, Protestant and Catholic.

    To deny that he was influenced by his pagan/Manichaen past is to ignore history and fact.
     
  14. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Agreed. :thumbsup:
     
  15. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

    Second paragraph confirms what we have been saying. Anyone familiar with Augustine knows this.
     
  16. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    :thumbsup:

    That Augustine was influenced by his past of Manichaesm and Neoplatonism cannot be refuted, nor can his influence on Calvin or RC theology. People can deny all they want, but they can't change the facts.
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I already refuted it and gave an academic source. Where is your source?
     
  18. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    :thumbsup:
     
  19. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    :thumbsup:
     
  20. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    You have refuted nothing.

    You have been given sources. If you want to deny the truth, you argue against historical evidence, not against me.

    Everyone from interested laypeople to scholars knows that Augustine's theology was influenced by Manichaesm and Neoplatonism, and this in turn was highly influential in the RCC and in Calvinism.

    Most of the errors in Western Christian thought can be traced to Augustine.
     
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