1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is Creation BY or THROUGH Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jan 14, 2022 at 2:10 AM.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

    Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

    The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

    “'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

    This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

    “John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

    By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

    Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

    There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

    It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

    “For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

    The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

    “Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

    They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

    As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

    In Revelation 3:14, Jesus describes Himself as “ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ”, which is, “the Beginning of the Creation of God”. “ἀρχὴ”, here does not mean, “the first to be Created”, which is what the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the words to mean, as they corrupt the English here, to read, “the beginning of the creation by God”. Notice how they misrepresent what the Greek says, by inserting “BY” God, to make Jesus Christ the first-created. John did not write, “τοῦ ὑπό θεοῦ”, which would require the Greek preposition “ὑπό”, to be used. Interesting that in this same chapter of Revelation, in verses 1 and 12, as elsewhere, John writes, “τοῦ θεοῦ”, as he does in verse 14. And yet in these places, the JW's translate into English, “of God”, which is what the genitive case means!If “ἀρχὴ” here means “first to be created”, then there would have been no need to insert in English, the preposition “BY”. The Greek lexicon by the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of the word, “ἀρχὴ”, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which means that Jesus Christ here says that He IS The Creator.

    We have the strongest Testimony that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator of the entire universe. In Hebrews chapter 1, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

    “And (καί, continued address to Jesus Christ), You (σύ, singular, referring to Jesus Christ) , Lord (κύριε, vocative, used in direct address), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail” (verses 10-12)

    These words are from Psalm 102:24-17, where they are used for Almighty God, Elohim:

    “I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end”

    It is impossible for the words in Psalm to be used for Jesus Christ, if, as some assume, that He is not equal to the Father, and Himself Almighty God, Yahweh.
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    cont...

    The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed).

    It is clear from Scripture, that the Father did not Create by Himself, nor did Jesus Christ, as we have seen that both are Testified in the Bible as Creator. The only possible way to understand this, when we see the use of , “διά”, rather than “intermediate agent”, we can use this preposition with the meaning of, “with one another”.

    In fact, there is a clear example of “διά” used in this sense in the New Testament, where we read in Galatians 1:1;

    “Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead”.

    Here we have, “δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος”, where the meaning is, “by both Jesus Christ and God the Father”. Paul did not write, “δια ιησου χριστου και εξ θεου πατρος”, that is, “through Jesus Christ and from God the Father”. The one preposition, διά, here governs BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father. Note also, how Paul mentions Jesus Christ before he does the Father. Something he would not have done, if Jesus Christ were “inferior” to the Father. In verse 3, Paul prays for “grace and peace”, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ”, where again we have the one Greek preposition, “ἀπὸ” (from), for “God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ”. Again, jointly used as equals, as the “origin and cause”, of our “grace and peace”.

    When we read in John 1:3, “πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο”, it is better translated, “all things with Him came into being”, as we have “τὸν θεόν” (God) in verse 1, as the Father. And, in verse 2 John is emphatic, when he says, “οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, “Who (the Word) was in the beginning with God”. This takes us into verse 3, as is distinct from the “ἀρχῇ”, which is not Genesis 1:1, but eternity past, as Jesus says in John 17:5, “And now, Father, glorify Me in your Own presence with the glory that I had (εἶχον, the imperfect, denoting origin and continuance) with (παρὰ, literally, “along with”, denoting equality) You before the world existed (πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι)”. Literally, “before there even was a world”, as in timeless eternity.

    The same is with Hebrews 1:1, 2, “ὁ θεὸς…ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ…δι᾽ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας”, where it should read, “God…in His Son…with Whom also He made the worlds”

    There can be no doubt, that the Bible clearly Teaches that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, exactly as God the Father is, and the Holy Spirit. This can only mean that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, Almighty God; and that the God of the Bible cannot be “Unitarian”, as some heretically teach, but IS Trinitarian.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    20,271
    Likes Received:
    684
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 1:3 - All things came to be by means of Him
    and apart from Him came to be not even one thing
    which has come to be.

    The Second Person of the Trinity accomplishes the purpose and plans of the First Person of the Trinity through the power of the Third Person of the Trinity.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    19,098
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is Jesus Christ the Father?
     
  5. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,094
    Likes Received:
    426
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you knew GE Ladds predispositions, you would know the answer.
     
  6. Servant of Lord Jesus

    Servant of Lord Jesus Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2021
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God spoke the entire Universe into Creation by fiat, and is not Jesus that Word of the Father?
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    5,856
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hebrews 1:3
    The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command.

    Hebrews 11:3
    By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
     
  8. Servant of Lord Jesus

    Servant of Lord Jesus Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2021
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, he is Second person of Godhead
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    NO!!!
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    NO!
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    meaning what?
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    but in no way is Jesus Christ inferior to the Father, in the Eternal Godhead. Even though we say "Second" Person, it is not "secondary"
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    5,856
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Servant of Lord Jesus

    Servant of Lord Jesus Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2021
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since Jesus is fully God, would not His own power suffice?
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    are you using some paraphase Bible?

    The Greek for 1:3, the first part is, "ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης", which literally reads, "Who eternally is the effulgence of The Glory".

    There is no "his", as in the Father's glory, in the Greek. This is inserted which corrupts its meaning.

    Jesus Christ is the effulgence of His OWN Glory, as He is Yahweh.
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    the theology of Van, and some others here, especially their Christology, is questionable, as they have this warped idea, that somehow God the Father is the "Primary" Member in the Godhead. This is theological nonsense, which was pushed by the early Church heretic, Origen, and adopted by many of the Orthodox Church Fathers, as do some even today.
     
    #16 SavedByGrace, Jan 14, 2022 at 2:25 PM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022 at 2:40 PM
    • Like Like x 1
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    anything to say?
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    5,856
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Two things. One, not a paraphrase Bible. Two, I trust it over your own personal translation. I have seen enough of your layman's attempt to translate so that I don't pay any attention to your greek theories on word meaning.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    5,856
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Donall and Conall said it best.
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    313
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dude, the NLT is NOT a word-for-word translation, and is a paraphrase, as it is only an improvement of Kenneth Taylor's Living Bible. There is not "God's own" in the Greek, so it does not even count!

    Time you learnt Greek yourself so that you can understand better, and not keep making silly accusations!
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
Loading...