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Featured Is death God’s punishment for sin….,

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Sep 13, 2023.

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  1. Death is the consequence of sin

    9 vote(s)
    64.3%
  2. Death is the punishment of God for sin

    3 vote(s)
    21.4%
  3. I am not sure

    2 vote(s)
    14.3%
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  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    … or is death the consequence of sin?

    This is an interesting question I have been considering the last couple of days.

    I viewed death as the consequence of sin, not punishment from God for sin. But now I’m not sure.

    God “punished” Adam by making him sweat and toil while he worked the ground. Eve’s “punishment” was increased pain in child birth.

    Suppose God told you “don’t eat the fruit of that tree, it is poison. If you eat it, you will die.” You eat the fruit and die. Did God “punish” you with death? Or did you die as a consequence of disobeying God’s command?

    So, my questions are…

    1. Are there any passages of scripture that specifically state God punished mankind for sin with death? I’m talking generally, not punishment for violating OT Law.

    2. Are there any significant doctrinal issues with viewing death as “consequence”? As “punishment?”

    Thanks in advance for thoughtful, civil discussion.
     
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  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for voting. Any comments concerning the questions?

    1.. Are there any passages that specifically say death is God’s punishment for sin? Not speaking about death penalty issues. Is the reason mankind dies is God is punishing sin? Scripture to support?

    2. Are there any significant doctrinal issues that are connected with death as consequence? Or death as punishment?

    peace to you
     
  3. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Your view it just fine. It's both. Here's Hodge from his "Commentary on Romans" chapter 5 of Romans
    "1. From the consideration that it is said to be the consequence of sin. It must, therefore, mean that death which the scriptures, elsewhere, speak of as the consequence and punishment of transgression. 2. Because this is the common and favourite term of the sacred writers, from first to last, for the penal consequences of sin. Gen 2:17 'In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die,' i.e. thou shalt become subject to the punishment due to sin; Ezek. 18:4, 'The soul that sinneth it shall die, Rom. 6:23, 'The wages of sin is death;' ch 8:13, ' If ye live after the flesh ye shall die.' Such passages are altogether too numerous to be quoted, or even referred to; see, as further examples, Romans 1:32. 7:5. James 1:15. Rev. 20:14, and so on. From the constant opposition between the terms life and death throughout the scriptures, the former standing for the rewards of the righteous, the latter for the punishment of the wicked. Thus, in Genesis 2:17, life was promised to our first parents as the reward of obedience, and death threatened as the punishment of disobedience." And he goes on. Normally, you could use punishment or consequence in this case interchangeably, unless you are trying to make some kind of special point, which you are not doing.
     
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  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death. James 1:15

    My question.

    YLT 1 John 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

    What death did the sin of the devil, bring forth? Why do animals die? Plants? What is death?
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Another relative thought, I think.

    for we have known that the law is spiritual, Thou shall not eat of it.
    and [yet] I am fleshly, sold by the sin;

    Did Adam make himself of the flesh of did God create him out of the ground, of flesh?

    Does the sin, the flesh was sold under, have anything to do with the sin of the devil?
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem with viewing death as God's punishment for sin is the Bible does not present it as such.

    It would present God as saving man from Himself, which is problematic.

    The Servant in Psalm 22 associates His suffering and death as a product of "evildoers".


    If death is God's punishment for sin then we would not die if forgiven.


    When we sin as a Christian we are forgiven. We do not face God's judgment for that action. But we often experience the consequences of our actions.
     
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  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the comments. JonC, I understand your point.

    To answer that point, I would point to scripture that refers to salvation in all three tenses. We are saved. We are being saved. We will be saved.

    If the punishment of “death” (as being forgiven by God) doesn’t refer to physical death, but rather the “second death” that comes after the judgment, then Jesus suffering death for us means we will not suffer the second death.

    Salvation is “already but not yet” as I heard a preacher say once. Ultimately, “salvation” occurs at the great throne judgment when we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, the penal substitution atonement is accepted in God’s court and we are declared righteous.

    Peace to you
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I suspect both physical and spiritual death is the work of the devil.

    Thanks for the comments.

    peace to you
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    We are saved, salvation
    We are being saved, sanctification
    We will be saved, glorification

    Death is not the punishment for our sin it is the consequence of sin. Adam's sin brought about that consequence. Genesis 3:19
    If one were to live a sinless life they would still die. Those that trust in Christ Jesus are saved from the second death not the first.

    This quote says it all “Born Once, Die Twice. Born Twice, Die Once.”

    The punishment for sin is spiritual separation form God.
     
    #9 Silverhair, Sep 13, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2023
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  10. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Some passages to ponder

    Psalm 116:15 (LSB)
    Precious in the sight of Yahweh Is the death of His holy ones.

    Ecclesiastes 3:19 (LSB)
    For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same fate for each of them. As one dies so dies the other, and they all have the same breath. So there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

    Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LSB)
    "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his way,” declares Lord Yahweh. “Turn back and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Now why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares Lord Yahweh. “Therefore, turn back and live.”

    2 Peter 3:9 (LSB)
    The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    Rob
     
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is different.

    There are different tenses of salvation (I agree with you on that).

    But there is physical death and the Second death. These are not the same (not tenses of the same thing).

    When we discuss the wages of sin being death we need to at least acknowledge that until the 11th Century AD this was considered as physical death, and Christ to have suffered this death under the powers of Satan.

    Now, there were differences in how this was done. Origen taught this was God paying a ransom to Satan (giving His Son to Satan who killed Him). Athanasius taught that sin causes death and Christ submitted to the powers of sin knowing that death could not hold Him, there y defeating Satan.Augustine taught it was God tricking Satan, using Christ as bait not knowing when he killed Jesus that would be his defeat.

    The idea that the wages of sin is anything but physical death as a consequence of sin and the Judgment of God either being life or the Second Death at Judgment is, while centuries old, still relatively new to the Christian faith. Given the circumstances in which the idea developed, I am not convinced that it has been worked out very well (at least not with Scripture in mind).
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You would have to provide clear evidence that this is considered punishment from God by God. In other words is this the only possible interpretation or are there any other possibilities?
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    We can go in a circle if we want. The wages, consequences, or sin is death. Death results in termination of life. Humanity is spiritually dead both because we were made "sinners" (forfeiters of fellowship with God) and due to any sin we have committed. This consequence is specified in Isaiah 59:2. It says we are separated from God due to the consequence of God being holy and sin rendering humans unholy. Thus this consequence of sin can become an "eternal punishment." (Matthew 25:46)

    1) Eternal separation from God is a result or consequence of sin.
    2) Eternal separation can be said to be eternal punishment.
    3) Does it become "punishment" only if a consequence of our individual sin, or just the consequence of Adam's original sin?
    4) Matthew 25:36 contrasts life with punishment, thus our initial state of separation (being spiritually dead) seems to qualify as punishment
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    For I delivered to you, in the first place, what also I had received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; 1 Cor 15:3 Darby

    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, Heb 5:7 YLT
    Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears; (and having been heard because of his piety;) Darby
    NASB95 [fn]In the days of His flesh, [fn]He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him [fn]from death, and He [fn]was heard because of His piety.

    fn = out of

    Is one translation better than the other? Which? Did God the Father save him out of death? Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
    Rom 8:11 YLT and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    That seems contrary to Romans 5:12 where death is directly connected to sin. All die because all sin.

    If someone led a sinless life, they would only die if someone else’s sin was put on them. Of Course that happened with Jesus.

    peace to you
     
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  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    That is not what we see in scripture. Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

    Are you saying that this consequence of Adams's sin, death, was not passed on to the following generations?

    Notice that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, Gen 2:17 and he did, spiritually. There was now a separation between Adam and God. He would be judged for his sin.

    Then we are told of a further judgement placed on Adam and Eve. Gen 3:19. Abram lived for many years after the sentence of death. Gen_5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died. That judgement was passed to all mankind. That is a fact that can not be denied.

    Spiritual death is not the same as physical death.
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that Jesus would have died of old age or disease if He had not been crucified? He lived a sinless life.

    peace to you
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @canadyjd Is that the best you can do?

    If Christ were just a man and he lived a sinless life then he would have died an old man, but since He was not just a man and He came to do a specific thing, to be the propitiation for humanity's sins that does throw light on your question.

    But what your question does show is that you do not have an answer to what I have posted. So you run to the absurd.
     
    #18 Silverhair, Sep 14, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2023
  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus would not have died of natural causes because he did not have Adam as a representative head like all of us do. Babies can die even though the only way they are sinful is that they are considered as being in Adam. If you can read Genesis 3 you have to admit that there were "consequences" for Adam and Eve. It's OK to call it that. But, those consequences were also sanctions applied purposely by God after explicitly warning Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree. That clearly fits the definition of punishment. Now when a baby dies who is so young that they have not personally committed sin you don't want to say that God is punishing the baby. And if a Christian chooses a martyr's death to obtain a better resurrection their death is not a direct punishment by God to them at that time. But still, that fact that both the baby and the Christian martyr were born under the sentence of eventual physical death - that fact and that truth hanging over them and all of us is in fact a punishment for sin, and also a consequence. I really don't see why the distinction matters.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    The consequence of Adam's sin was the first death, the punishment for our sin is the second death. There is a vast difference.
     
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