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Featured Is death God’s punishment for sin….,

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Sep 13, 2023.

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  1. Death is the consequence of sin

    9 vote(s)
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  2. Death is the punishment of God for sin

    3 vote(s)
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  3. I am not sure

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  1. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    The point is that even if God never lifted a finger to punish sin, sin itself would still plunge sinners into misery and disorder. This is a problem for penal substitution, because it means that God's wrath is not the central problem that Jesus died to address.
     
  2. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    Adam and Eve died, spiritually, as soon as they took of the fruit. To live forever in sin is to be in everlasting death, ie hell.
     
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  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:12-13 is not difficult to understand. Paul is clearly speaking of physical death. If you are unable to comprehend the sentence “all die BECAUSE all sin”, I suggest you go to a library and find a third grade English primer and study the word “because”.

    Referring to the very clear teaching of scripture in Romans 5:12-13 to an “errant view” while embracing a very secular humanistic philosophy will lead you to significant errors…. of which you express on a regular basis.

    peace to you
     
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure God’s wrath is the central problem that Jesus died to address. The central problem that Jesus addressed is that we are separated from God because of sin.

    peace to you
     
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  5. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    Truth.

    Isaiah 59:2 - "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God."
     
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  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Ah the final resort of the calvinist, insult. So much for your good Christian image.

    What did I Post to you before

    Are you saying that this consequence of Adams's sin, death, was not passed on to the following generations?

    Notice that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, Gen 2:17 and he did, spiritually. There was now a separation between Adam and God. He would be judged for his sin.

    Then we are told of a further judgement placed on Adam and Eve. Gen 3:19. Abram lived for many years after the sentence of death. Gen_5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died. That judgement was passed to all mankind. That is a fact that can not be denied.

    Spiritual death is not the same as physical death.

    So it is you that may need to partake of a remedial reading course. Why do you not trust what God actually said to Adam?
     
  7. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    Notice that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, Gen 2:17 and he did, spiritually.

    Yes. Correct.

    Important to clarify his spiritual death was not an act of God, though, but his own act.

    There was now a separation between Adam and God. He would be judged for his sin.

    Then we are told of a further judgement placed on Adam and Eve. Gen 3:19. Abram lived for many years after the sentence of death. Gen_5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died. That judgement was passed to all mankind. That is a fact that can not be denied.

    Spiritual death is not the same as physical death.

    This is all correct.
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I quoted scripture. You called scripture an “errant view”.

    Please explain how “all die BECAUSE all sin” somehow means all die because Adam sinned?

    peace to you
     
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    With reference to God telling Adam that he would die if he ate the fruit, people often qualify God’s statement that they died “spiritually” not physically.

    God sacrificed animals and used the skins to make clothing for Adam and Eve. With that, God instituted the sacrificial system for sin. This is clear because when Cain and Abel brought offerings, Abel sacrificed animals, which God accepted.

    The separation we have with God is both physical and spiritual.

    peace to you
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Do you know of some people that are not under the sentence of death? Do you know of some that will not face eternal punishment for their sins if they do not repent and trust God for their salvation. And just a thought, but are you not of that group that says "we all sinned in Adam"?

    Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man {that would be Adam} sin entered the world, and death through sin, {spiritual death/separation from God at the time and eventually physical death} and thus death {physical death} spread to all men, because all sinned—{which brings about our spiritual death}

    This is what have I been saying all along and which you have fought against.

    The consequence of Adam's sin was the first death, the punishment for our sin is the second death.

    This is what I posted before so why did you disagree with it

    The fact that you can not or actually will not see the difference between physical death as a consequence of Adams sin and spiritual death as a punishment for each persons sin speaks more of your loyalty to calvinism rather than to the biblical text.

    We are sinners because we sin, each person is judged for their own sin not someone else's. I am no more judged for your sins than I am for Adam's.

    Actually it was this verse that I quoted:
    Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    Adam sinned when he violated the command of God and ate of the tree and sin entered the world. The consequence of that sin was
    1] Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
    2] Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
    3] By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground
    4] For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.

    The punishment for Adam's sin, if he had not repented, would not be experienced for many years.
    Gen 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

    The punishment for sin:
    Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Everyone dies that is the consequence of Adams's sin, first death. Those that do not trust in Christ will suffer the punishment for their sin, second death.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The Apostle Paul is very clearly speaking of physical death in Romans 5:12-13. He personified sin as a slave master that controls all that are enslaved to sin, which is everyone.

    When he states “the wages of sin is death” he is referring to the practice in Roman society to pay their slaves a small stipend which could be saved over many years to purchase the slaves freedom.

    Rather than being able to buy their freedom, the only wages the Sin Master gives is death. “Death” is then personified as a Master that rules.

    When Paul says “wretched man that I am” he is using a common slang term for a slave (a wretched man). He then asks “who can deliver me from this body of death. In this case, the “of” is showing possession. So the essence is “who can deliver me from this body that belongs to the Death Master”.

    He then praises Jesus Christ as the one who delivers us.

    In Romans 5:12-13, Paul is speaking of physical death. The context of the passsge is clear.

    Again, the argument I have with you is the statement f a person leads a sinless life, they will still die. You seem to be saying Adam’s sin is put upon them and they die.

    You then quote Ezekiel saying the sins of the father will not pass to the son.

    You are saying contradictory things in an attempt to make a point founded in secular humanistic philosophy.

    peace to you
     
  12. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    This is a false understanding of what the Bible teaches. We die physically because we all have sinned.

    Paul teaches that physical death "passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Rom. 5:12). All men die physically as the punishment for their having sinned and not merely as the consequence of Adam's sin.

    If we refuse to repent of that sin and believe in God's Son before we die physically, we will also experience eternal death.
     
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  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Just as Adam brought sin into the world he also brought death. Death is the thread that binds us all.

    The consequence of Adam's sin was the first death, the punishment for our sin is the second death.

    Read Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

    Adam sinned when he violated the command of God and ate of the tree and sin entered the world. The consequence of that sin was
    1] Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
    2] Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
    3] By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground
    4] For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.

    Read Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 and note verse 7 "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."
    God breathed the spirit of life into Adam and he lived. He was made from dust and at death to dust he would return. That is the consequence for all of humanity.

    We die because that was part of the curse that God pronounced on Adam.

    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,
     
    #73 Silverhair, Sep 19, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2023
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  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Took some time looking through my commentaries.
    Here are a few comments from various commentaries that may help you get a clearer understanding of this verse

    Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

    Because of Adam’s sin, all mankind is under condemnation and death. Wiersbe Bible Commentary: New Testament

    Therefore death reigns for Adam’s sin, but is often hastened by our own sin. A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Joseph Sutcliffe

    By “death” in Gen_2:17; Gen_3:19 physical death is meant, but in Rom_5:17, Rom_5:21 eternal death is Paul’s idea and that lurks constantly behind physical death with Paul. Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

    The universal consequences of Adam’s sin are the assumption of Paul’s argument; the power of Christ’s act to cancel those consequences is its goal. The New International Commentary on the New Testament

    Adam was not originally subject to death but, through his sin, it became a grim certainty for him and his posterity. MacArthur Bible Commentary

    The principle of death was introduced into the world when Adam sinned and it has reigned on earth ever since. David Guzik's Enduring Word Commentary

    "So also the universal death principle passed into all men;" After Adam's sin every child conceived, begotten, or born into the human race inherited the germ of physical and spiritual death from conception, Psa_51:5; Psa_58:3; Jas_1:15; Rom_3:23. Garner-Howes Baptist Commentary

    God’s penalty for sin was both spiritual and physical death (cf. Rom_6:23; Rom_7:13), and Adam and Eve and their descendants experienced both. But physical death, being an outward, visible experience, is in view in Rom_5:12-21. Paul concluded, And in this way death (“the death”) came to all men. The Bible Knowledge Commentary
     
  15. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Your comments here are lacking. When Adam sinned by violating God's command, the punishment that God Himself imposed on him included all of the following:

    "1] Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
    2] Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
    3] By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground
    4] For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

    You are wrongly asserting that all of these were just mere consequences that resulted from his sin; they were not just consequences--they were God's punishment of him for his sin.
     
    #75 Scripture More Accurately, Sep 19, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2023
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  16. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    These commentaries do not support your claims. In fact, note what the last commentary that you cite explicitly says: "God's penalty for sin . . ." A penalty is a punishment imposed by an authority (in this case, God); it is not merely a consequence.
     
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  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I notice that you did agree that the imposed penalty for sin is actually a consequence. But you cannot just say you agree with what those commentaries said you have to find some point of perceived disagreement. For someone that calls themselves @Scripture More Accurately you do not seem to want to be accurate with your reading of scripture or what is posted.

    By the way did you notice most of those commentaries are from calvinist commentators?
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So you think a punishment is a consequence for something that the person has done?
     
  19. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    I've had enough of this discussion. Continuing it would be a waste of time. You can carry on with your denials of what the Bible actually says.
     
  20. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    I do not care at all to discuss anything about calvinist or not. That would be a further waste of my time.
     
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